Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Which Tig welder is better?
- - By zee (*) Date 06-30-2003 22:52
I took a welding class for about 6 months. The second time I took the class (2nd part), I dropped out. I did learn a lot and I'm able to do oxyacetylene, GTAW and GMAW welding. I am in the market to purchase a 250-300 amp output industrial Tig Welder that I will be using to fabricate stainless turbo manifolds and also exhaust systems. I will also be using it for automotive turbo intercooler (aluminum welding), and auto bodywork. I will also be doing some sheet metal welding. I have welded steel, stainless, and aluminum already.

I plan on purchasing a Miller Syncrowave 250DX TigRunner, but was wondering if the lincoln 275 model (with all equipment needed to weld also), might be better? I'm asking because I have never used these NEWER welders. The last Tig Welder I used was a Miller 250 I believe, but an older version. Just want to know your opinions, thanks!
Parent - - By flatjwl (*) Date 07-01-2003 00:17
Since you only want opinions, I will say I have both the units you mentioned, and others, and the Lincoln is superior.
Parent - - By ScottV (**) Date 07-01-2003 01:34
Flatjwl,I was wondering what you like on your Lincoln that you don't on your Miller?I have been impressed with Lincoln lately,from the one's I have owned.SP175 plus,Ranger 305G,Powermig 300.They are all great units,that Miller really doesn't have a answer for yet!
Parent - - By flatjwl (*) Date 07-01-2003 23:07
ScottV, I like the pulsing system, the foot pedal, the smoother arc and the fact that the auto-balance is always "right" for nearly any aluminum job. It also works better for large 7018 electrodes in AC mode when doing jobs where there is a magnetic interference problem with any DC machine.

Yes, the PowerMig 300 is outstanding, especially when combined with the Cobra gun.
Parent - By ScottV (**) Date 07-02-2003 01:20
Thats,the kind of info I was looking for.Also the powermig is not too bad with the python also.Thats my setup with the tig torch,and stick ready to go in 30 seconds from each process except the change over from the standard gun to the python setup.It took awhile to get it dialed in,but with dual bottles,and flow meters it's slick.Everything stays on the machine,and is well laid out.
Parent - By always welding Date 07-01-2003 05:43
I have not used a Lincoln, however, I purchased a new Miller Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner in 11/02. Have had no regrets. Would purchase again. Although I have not needed service, keep in mind how convenient servicing would be should the need arise. Many welding supply companies service and stock Miller parts. Might want to call some companies in your area and see how quickly a Miller or Lincoln can be serviced if needed. Hope this is of help.
Parent - - By Michael Sherman (***) Date 07-01-2003 11:09
Zee, I have several Millers and even more Lincolns, including the 275 you mention. I have to agree with the one post about service. I believe both machines are very good and all things being equal, the availibility of service may well be the deciding factor. I would choose the machine that your local supplier carries. He can get you parts and any service you need faster if he stocks the machine. If your local supplier carries both, ask him for a demonstration. Any supplier worth his salt will have a machine set up for you to try.

Mike Sherman
Shermans Welding
Parent - - By awill4wd (**) Date 07-01-2003 12:14
How does Miller's "Dynasty" compare pricewise? I do basically the same type of work as you are interested in, particularly alloy intercoolers and radiators.
We have Syncrowave 250 here and my new OTC inverter machine and I have to say that I haven't even plugged in the Syncrowave for over 2 months. I am that impressed with inverter technology.
I particularly like the ability to compress the arc for fillet welding with adjustable Hertz control that the Syncrowave just can't do. The AC balance control is much broader on inverters also and the ability to weld at high amps using very low current draw through the plug. EG, last week I was welding a job at the front of the factory using a 10amp outlet and pumping the machine out to 250 amps. You simply can't get the Syncrowave to do that.
I've tried a Dynasty and I was very impressed with what you get for such a small machine. In the end I went for OTC but that was personal preference.
I guess luckily for us here in Australia we seem to get a broader range of machines available and some of the ones from Europe (particularly Fronius and Kemppi) are really the machines of choice over here at the moment. In your situation based in the USA I assume, in inverter machines you would probably have to look at Miller, Lincoln and have you thought about the Pro Wave from Thermal Dynamics I believe?
If you're looking at buying a new machine and especially if you power supply is a bit marginal maybe it's worth thinking about inverters.
Sorry for the long post.
Regards Andrew.
Parent - - By zee (*) Date 09-29-2003 22:39
I'm still in the market for a good tig welder $3000-3300. I'm still looking for more opinions, so I can make a decision. Please help me decide between a Lincoln precision tig 275 and miller 250 syncrowave tigrunner.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-30-2003 12:03
Two good choices to my mind.

I've been working with Synchrowave 250s since 1989. Seen them run 3 shifts 7 days for years and years. Never and I mean Never any breakdowns. The circuit boards are simple and the right ones for the job. They are hands down the best industrial tig welder money can buy. Dust won't bother them. Coastal air is no problem, humidity? no worries. put it on a cart and bounce it around a bit without problems.

While the medics come and haul away the Hobarts and Linclons that Synchrowave 250 keeps running.

This is not a Miller Commercial. I have put out real fires on Aerowaves and Dynastys. I'm just saying that the ol 250 is the benchmark standard for its kind of machine.
Parent - - By zee (*) Date 10-02-2003 23:21
Well, I just purchased a Miller 250DX Syncrowave Tigrunner from a local welding shop. I was going to purchase it through the internet, but I thought this was a good idea, since I would have a dedicated shop I could go to for welding supplies and service. So thanks for the input guys, and your opinions really do count. Wow that sounds like some kind of service message. haha
Parent - By aircraft (**) Date 10-06-2003 01:46
If you want your Miller to weld as smooth as a Linclon you need to purchase Miller's power factor correction kit, then you have the power of Blue and the smoothness of Red.

We bought it to reduce the power constraints and this was a pleasent surprise.

Does anyone know why Miller does not install this as standard equipment?
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 10-03-2003 22:49
Hey Lawrence are you saying that the Aerowave actually had flames in it or coming out of it. If so do you know what the cause was? These machines are supposed to have thermostats in them. I'm in the market for an Aerowave and need feedback of any kind- TRC
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-06-2003 11:55
TRC

I'm pretty sure that the Bugs that caused flameout of the Aerowaves I was using have all been squashed. Our Aerowaves were some of the first, not beta models but still first generation with some serious circuit board difficulties. Having said that, Miller Electric and Mike Sammons were Johnny on the spot. They fixed (at their own expence) every problem we ever encountered, right away.

I now have a new job and a new Aerowave. This one I haven't had a chance to run totally through its paces (Were teaching Mig and Fluxcore this semester).

The moral of the story is this. If you are doing wierd stuff with Aluminum or need for any reason aysemmetric amprage control with AC, than Aerowave is just about the only game in town under 50 Grand. (OTC owners your 2 cents come here).

I like the Aerowave all in all and believe the merits outweigh the disadvantages.

I have lots of stories and thoughts on the matter, so ask any questions you might have and I will blather on some more.

Lawrence
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 10-26-2003 18:54
Hey Lawrence, I just now saw your response. I plan on getting an Aerowave over a Dynasty because of it's higher duty cycle. I rented a 300 Dynasty for a while and could not belive the differance in arc quality between it and a square wave. I did a procedure qualification for some D17.1 work that I had and fell head over heals in love with the Dynasty. I'm just afraid that there's just not enough ass in the Dynasty to work day in and day out. The D17.1 work was .090 6061 but I also do a lot of Mil- 278 using dcen on SS, copper ni and ni copper. There may also be some Ti in the near future.
Have you had a chance to compare the two? And what is aysemmetric amperage control?
Thanks- Ted
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-26-2003 20:12
TRC,

Those are big questions; I'll try to give a brief rundown.

I have both and have compared them pretty thoroughly. (I almost cried when the night class instructor hooked a stick electrode to the Aerowave, but hey for 8 grand it outta chip the slag too I guess)

Aerowave has a higher price tag to go along with that increased duty cycle. The short answer; if money is not an obstacle than I'd make the pitch for Aerowave.

You weld on weird stuff, which is the only reason anybody should consider Aerowave. However, Dynasty can go all day long on 0.090 6061 without breaking a sweat. Our Dynasty out performed its rated duty cycle during trials, but I don't know that many folks who are going to tig at high amps for more than 4 minutes out of 10 anyhow.

Now as to the Asymmetric amperage control, This is the key to aerowave... Let's set the stage by thinking about Balance control. Balance control is the "dwell time" on each side of the AC cycle right? On a Synchrowave or similar power source the "Max Cleaning-Max Penetration Balance controls go to 80% Dwell time on Straight polarity to achieve max penetration. Aerowave can run balance control all the way to 90%; this is important but useless without asymmetric control of Amperage on each side of the half cycle.

Asymmetric amperage control actually controls the amount of current on each side of the AC cycle. Its best at this point to visualize Aerowave as two power sources (one Straight polarity- and one reverse polarity +) with a computer to meter out the power.

Here is an example off the top of my head, the parameters are theoretical and not instructions in the classical sense. Lets start with your 0.090 6061, lets make it a fillet weld in an area sensitive to clearance so you want a small bead profile. Now Aerowave and Dynasty both have Exaggerated Balance Control and AC frequency control. So both machines can employ increased frequency (let’s say 200 htz.) to make the arc more conical and directional. But with 90% balance control to max pen can we get sufficient etch to make a sound weld even with excellent surface prep? Prolly not.

This is where Aerowave shines. We can adjust the amplitude on either side of the half cycle to create an arc/etch that is suitable for a very specific job. Were back at 200 htz. And 90% Max pen now lets set our amps. Trials are the only way to dial in Aerowave at this point… NOBODY has published workable guidelines for specific materials/thickness/joint geometries. You can view Asymmetric amperage control like a pulser, High + for a very short duration to get adequate etch. Or you can go the other way and set reverse polarity at a relatively low amperage (just enough to etch) and pour the coals to the negative side of the half cycle to get very deep penetration. Remember the + polarity is only required to etch the surface, once that’s accomplished the real work is done by the Straight polarity side of the half cycle..This feature allows much smaller dia electrodes.

Ok I’m gonna stop here and see if questions arise. Aerowave, like pulsed mig is complicated and there is no way around it, its just hard to explain without samples and hands on practical work. Also, like pulsed mig there are not all that many applications that can really receive a material benefit from the technology. But if you love fancy machines it’s a total blast.
Parent - By TRC (***) Date 10-26-2003 22:56
Yes Monel is wierd stuff and it stinks as well. Thanks for the explaination. Can't wait to try it out. Ted
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 11-07-2003 23:56
Hey Lawrence, I took delivery on an Aerowave a week ago. The AC side is just what I expected having used the Dynasty. I haven't tried the assymetric waves yet. What up with the buzzing of the DC arc? I was supprised to hear it. I have used inverters a lot for GTAW and the XMT 300 had a little squeel at 100 amps and below. Used a Thermal GTS190 and made no sound at all. Has this been your experience with the Aerowaves you've used?


Ted
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-10-2003 13:32
DC buzzing?

Never experienced that with any of my Aerowaves.

The old PowCon Tigs used to have a little high pitched thingie goin on for DC-.

A new generation Aerowave? Mine have a high freq. arc starter with a small DC+ pulse to aid in ignition. But as soon as the arc is struck (AC or DC) thats the end of high freq. with Aerowave.
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 11-10-2003 16:57
That's why I'm asking, never heard anything like it. It sounds like the AC with the freqeancy turned down around 30 or 40. When I get a chance later in the week I'll give Miller a call and see what they have to say. Also did any of the ones you used have "fan on demand". The advertizement on the net showed it to have this feature but mine doesn't.
Talk to ya later in the week- it's time to going crappie fishing here in the northeast.

Thanks again-Ted
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-11-2003 13:29
Ted.

30-40 Htz. sounds like a slow and annoying buzzzzz alright. Miller is pretty good about answering questions.

None of my Aerowaves (between 2 and 7 years old) have fan on demand. Wasen't an option at the time of purchase.
Parent - By TRC (***) Date 11-12-2003 10:12
Hey Lawrence, I talked to Miller and the person I talked to also said something may not be right. He said without being there it would be difficult to tell what's up. I'm going to get with my dealer and see what they have to say.
At Millerwelds.com the a page that advertises the Aerowave list "fan on demand" but Miller says it's a mistake.
Thanks again- Ted
Parent - - By zee (*) Date 10-02-2003 23:24
You know, I would love to have purchased a dynasty, because now I'm having problems wiring up the garage for that kind of power. Anyways, its out of my budget (TOTALLY), but it sounds like a dream to own a dynasty. Thanks for your input.
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 10-03-2003 15:33
Z,
What kind of wiring problems?
D
Parent - - By zee (*) Date 10-03-2003 16:00
My house has a 100amp main breaker, 30amp washer dryer, and a bunch of 15's and 20's. For the Syncrowave 250 the required input voltages are 200/230/460 and 110/96/48 respective amperes max at those voltages. My house does not even have the 110 max amps required to run the Syncrowave at maximum amps. Let alone even a 100 or 80 amp circuit breaker. I'm having a friend come over this sunday, Oct. 5 to see about running a dedicated line. But, with a 100 amp main breaker, I don't think I'll have enough juice to run the potential of this machine. Especially if I'm going to be welding aluminum.

I am still a novice/newbie/rookie with welding, as I've only had a little more than 6 months in a classroom/shop setting, practicing basic welding. I have welded aluminum, SS, and steel with a TIG welder. I just need to start practicing, and I need to get this machine wired and ready to go.
Parent - By dee (***) Date 10-04-2003 11:59
Z,
Hmmmmm.
Best of luck. I dont know any shortcuts around that one.
D
Parent - - By brande (***) Date 10-04-2003 05:54
The Dynasty is an expensive machine, but is great for "finess" type work. Owned a Syncro 250 for 15 years, and it served very,very well.

Got a Dynasty since the bean counter said I had to spend some money.
Boy, did I spend some money!!

All in all, I am very impressed with the Dynasty. While it's performance on steel and stainless is not that much greater than the Syncro 250, except on the really thin stuff-the adjustability of balance and frequency on aluminum is really good. Once you get the hang of frequency, balance and using the pulser-this does take time-you can make welds you only dreamed of before. Keep an open mind.

Getting used to a pointed tungsten on AC aluminum welding takes some getting used to as well.

As a side note, while Miller recommends 2% or ceriated on aluminum, I've found my best results with 1.5 lanthanated tungsten. The only advantage I found with ceriated is starts well at low amps, but wilts easily at high amps.

I ran a Thermal ProWave extensively recently, but was not impressed. Seems while it has most of the same stuff as the Dynasty, it just seems weak, somehow.

OTC (Osaka Transformer) makes some very good equipment. Many of the "new" ideas from the major welder mfg are nothing more than a rehash of what OTC did 10 years ago. There are many OTC units working in hi-tech applications. A definite forward thinking company.

The inverter is here to stay. They can be electronically modified to give great arc performance at any process, or level.

I was the last one to change to inverters, but you can't fight the results!!

I'll bet (not much though-ain't got that much) that in the next 7-10 years the inverter will be the major machine configuaration and few transformer based machines will remain.
The only place I can see transformers staying equal to inverters is the sub arc process. I could be wrong on this, I've been wrong before.

FWIW

Good Luck
brande
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-13-2003 11:11
Hey brande!!!

You mentioned the OTC power sources, and I agree!!!
I would also like mention the Kemmpi (Finland) power sources that utilize the same IGBT technology that OTC incorporates into their inverters...
Now, you know that I've been away from the repair end of the business for a while so, I have to ask you this; Which one of these two brands are more dependable in your opinion? Btw, they use these power sources alot in the UK... Rodofgod, what do you think??? Oh yeah, could you explain to us your take on IGBT inverter technology, and the advantages over the technology used previously? Also, does Miller incorporate IGBT inverter technology in their inverters? How about Lincoln? TA?
TIA (Thanks In Advanced)!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By rodofgod (**) Date 10-30-2003 01:30
Hi All!

My company use Kempii(?) inverters for their power source almost exclusively! This is mainly 'power station shut downs' and refinary 'turn-a-rounds'
I've never had a problem with them! They do what they're asked of, day in, day out! I don't have to buy them, so I don't know what they cost! but I would say they are worth their money! I've never had to call a tech. out to an 'inverter'!!!!
However, some of the MIG/TIG boxes that connect to the inverter ARE a Source of reoccuring problems, mainly HF leakage which can be a big problem!
Personally, I feel that 'inverters' feel 'a bit' course when using them for MMA welding, but that's only my feel on things! You can't fault them for MIG/TIG applications!

One problem that I have discovered,... If you intend using 'celluistic' electrodes i.e FLeets/Nu5,make sure your 'set' has the O.C.V to handle these type of 'rods'!!!! Ours wouldn't!!!
Parent - - By Laiky (*) Date 02-13-2004 13:57
since you guys seem to really know your stuff, i would like your opinion. For home / hobbie use ( a little of everything ) and feeding my growing obsession with TIG welding. What would you reccomend as far as inverters go? I am looking at the Dynasty 200DX, lincoln Invertec 205,and thermal arc pro wave 185. i really like the dynasty, especially because it will run on 110. but the prowave is 800 bucks cheaper!! i think i have rulled out the 205. Also is it true that the 205 is actually a repackaged import unit?
Parent - - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 02-14-2004 00:34
I have the Thermal Arc 185...great machine in my opinion! Nice smooth arc...and if you want to get into programming any pulsing you can do that. You get everything you need to start welding in one package too (except for the gas cylinder).
Parent - By Laiky (*) Date 02-14-2004 05:59
what type of welding do you do and how much did you pay for it?
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Which Tig welder is better?

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill