tolerance for position of test plates for Groove welds.

Date 10-10-2019 02:28

Myself and a few colleagues have been engaged in multiple discussions about Figure 4.3 position of test plates for groove welds and where one can locate the stated tolerances for the required position of the groove weld test plates. Some people like to believe that we could perform the given test anywhere within the range shown in figure 4.1 for the given position. While I don't really agree that this seems to be completely realistic - I cannot find anything in writing in D1.1 or D1.5 saying that we can or cannot apply. Please help me get clarification to this.

Some like to use ASME or other codes and say that the tolerance is +/- 15° from the defined horizontal plane and +/- 5° from the defined vertical or inclined plane, but where is this stated in D1.1 or D1.5? Only that which is stated in code is truly supportable.

some like to say that the figure 4.1 and the given ranges of positions is for production welds only, but I would ask where that is indicated as well.

Sub clause 4.3.4 Positions of Welds. ALL welds shall be classified as flat (F), horizontal (H), vertical (V), or overhead (OH), in conformance with the definitions shown in Figure 4.1, Figure 4.2, and 9.2.1.

Test assembly positions are shown in:

(1) Figure 4.3 (groove welds in plate)

(2) Figure 4.4 (fillet welds on plate)

Those statements being combined within the same clause and the indication of ALL shall be classified ..would seem to suggest that the positions and tolerance or full ranges as shown in Figure 4.1, Figure 4.2 and 9.2.1 would in fact be applicable to the test assemblies.

Please show me something in code to support or refute this belief.

By 803056

Date 10-10-2019 02:59

We gone through this several times in the past. A quick search should locate those discussions.

Figure 4.1 shows the limits of the four positions; flat, horizontal, vertical, and overhead. it is not the "tolerance" applied to the positions of the test coupons when qualifying the WPS or the welder.

D1.1 references AWS A3.0 for terms and definitions that are not included in the glossary included in Annex J found in the back of the code. In this case "flat welding position" is included in the glossary.

Personally, I put a spirit level on the test assembly As long as the "bubble" is within the lines, good to go.

To anyone that wants to apply the "tolerances" of Figure 4.1, I say, "knock yourself out, its your reputation that's on the line when you sign your name to the test report. If the inspector's reputation is questioned by other people, he or she might as well find another profession. Your not doing anyone a favor by stretching the "rules"."

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Al

By Quality0537 (*)

Date 10-10-2019 04:37

Al

I agree. I have gone and searched for all the previous posts and around and around with this. I was coming in to delete my earlier post...and found your response. I finally found the connection between the tables and the distinction between test names and welding positions. I think that this is something that many of us get mixed up a bit … at least once otherwise there wouldn't be so many posts over it for years back.

By Steelslinger (**)

Date 10-10-2019 14:04 Edited 10-10-2019 14:43

D1.1:2015 Paragraph 4.15.1.1 states to use Table 4.10 for Welder & Welding Operator Qualitications.

Table 4.10, note a, says to use Figures 4.3 & 4.4

Figure 4.3 & 4.4 refer you to paragraph 4.3.4

Para 4.3.4 Positions of Welds under 'Common Requirements for WPS and Welding Personnel Performance Qualification' says:
All welds shall be classified as flat (F), horizontal (H), vertical (V), or overhead (OH), in conformance with the definitions shown in Figure 4.1, Figure 4.2, and 9.2.1.

* Edited to Add:
D1.5:2015 is less clear than D1.1 on this as it does not have the same references back to those tables in relation to Welding Personnel Qualifications.
It has a more undefined but similarly worded section:
5.8.1 Qualification Requirements. All welds that will be encountered in actual construction shall be classified as (I) flat, (2) horizontal, (3) vertical, or (4) overhead in conformance with the defiuitions of welding positions described in Figures 5.4 and 5.5. Each WPS shall be tested in the position in which welding will be performed in the work.

Now with that said, I would document the s..t out of it, in relation to whatever angles/tolerances you used.

By Steelslinger (**)

Date 10-10-2019 14:30

Also, I would recommend, that the test position should be as close to what will be done in production as possible.

That and full documentation of what was done, would give you the best defense/reasoning in the case of someone questioning it (EOR sign off wouldn't hurt either).