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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / visual over radiography, and visual rejection under magnific
- - By Gigimom (*) Date 05-07-2020 15:14
I have a dilemma one of our customers has rejected welds visually, we have had 2,  3rd party inspectors read the RT's and have no problem passing this, the customer is rejecting due to visual under magnification, and says that trumps RT?? does anyone know if in B31.3 it says anything about visual over RT, or rejecting under magnification? this is Hastelloy rod with stainless steel fittings
Parent - - By Gigimom (*) Date 05-07-2020 15:41
also , just to give you some background, we weld from the outside, this is being rejected from inside using magnification, using Hastelloy rod to stainless steel (which is not easy to combine anyway) they are rejecting due to some Porosity they see under magnification only!! we had 2 different CWI Level IV's look at the RT and Pass but we have one inspector at our clients that say, B31.3 does not say they can not magnify it, and that visual under magnification trumps RT and regular visual (which you can not see what they see under magnification) we are trying to come up with something but their stance is B31.3 does not say they can not use magnification?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-07-2020 16:10 Edited 05-07-2020 16:14
Their evaluation must be based on the acceptance criteria provided by the piping code for the listed fluid service. Table 341.3.2 is the starting point. However, you should review Article 9 addressing VT in ASME Section V for technique. I don't have a copy handy, so I'll let you do the leg work.

The Owner's inspector is required to meet the qualification requirements of B31.3 paragraph 340.4 and Article 1 of Section 5.

What the hell is a CWI Level IV? CWIs are not qualified to interpret radiographic film. And where in the code does it say VT with magnification takes precedence over VT?

It sounds like you are in a pissing contest were everyone is standing knee deep in cow manure.

Al
Parent - By Gigimom (*) Date 05-07-2020 16:47
This is my delima! We have always been under the assumption that Rt is final say over visual the inspector at this company is saying visual and RT are equal? If that's the case why pay for RT if you can just over turn it! I believe this inspector has a hard on for us and doesn't know how to interpret film
Parent - - By Gigimom (*) Date 05-07-2020 16:56
I was just wanting to see if someone knew of a section in B31.3 that could help regarding this... I've have been looking for awhile now. It's to the point they want us to do live boroscope with them and they can accept or reject in live time but if they would do all hastelloy and not trying to weld hastelloy to stainless we wouldn't be having this issue.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-07-2020 18:09
Does the contract specify boroscopic examination? That is consider remote or indirect VT and is not usually part of B31.3 requirements unless it is part of the project specifications.

As stated, the applicable reference for examinations for the qualification of inspectors and technique is ASME Section V article 9 for VT.

Al
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-07-2020 20:46
Each test method has its advantages and disadvantages. RT is not the examination of choice if the discontinuities are related to weld profile. Undercut, overlap, laminations, etc. are best evaluated by visual examination. Subsurface porosity, root cracks in a pipe joint, slag inclusions, etc. are best evaluated using RT.

Unless boroscopic examination is included in the project specifications, I would resist using it. The piping code is pretty specific about what examinations and test methods are to be used. B31.3 is also specific with regards to using Section V for the qualification of inspection personnel and technique. Visual examination is limited to what you can seen by eye. The use of boroscopes, fiberscopes, etc. is not considered to be direct visual examination and beyond the scope of visual examination.

Rather than dancing around the subject, have you looked at Section V to see what they have to say on the subject of visual examination?

Al
Parent - - By Gigimom (*) Date 05-08-2020 19:27
Thanks this confirms just about every expert answer that I have gotten so far. Our issue is they are rejecting welds of two different metal's that any welder could not pass and holding us to a unrealistic expectations if that is going to be their acceptance criteria then anybody who could live up to. Would you know of anyone that could have this as their criteria? Of a hose welded from the outside and rejecting the inside not by normal visual which they did pass along with 2 different level IV looking not only visually but the radiography also
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-09-2020 19:57
I'll ask again, what the hell is a Level IV?

All of the welding and NDE standards I've worked with only have 3 levels of certification.

Al
Parent - - By Gigimom (*) Date 05-11-2020 12:55
I was meaning level III , Sorry had to pull his cert up, I was thinking level IV on our welders.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 05-14-2020 23:59
344.2.2 Method. Visual examination shall be
performed in accordance with ASME BPVC, Section V,
Article 9. Examination shall be by the direct visual technique.
The use of a remote visual technique and the acceptance
criteria beyond the requirements of this Code shall
be a matter of agreement between contracting parties
prior to the start of fabrication.

Visual examination is with the eye.
If they want to use a boroscope and/or magnification it must be agreed by both parties before fabrication commences - that has obviously not happened.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-15-2020 00:44
Perfect Shane. How's the family and you during this pandemic?

My doctor told me I most likely had the Covid 19 when I returned from a cross country trip to Santa Fe back in mid-March. I just figured it was another "bug" that seems to come with galivanting around the country by air. A few days after getting home, it felt like someone beat the hell out of me with a baseball bat. Then I just wanted to sleep for the next week because I felt exhausted. The second week was a little better, much better the third week, and pretty well over it by the end of the fourth week. During that time, I didn’t want to do anything that required concentration.

I was hoping the poster would do some of the leg work to get the answer he was looking for.

Al
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 05-15-2020 01:30
Hi Al,
Glad to hear you have recovered.
Still struggling with the lockdown here but many more in worse situation so can't complain.

We had a ballot recently that described exactly what " direct visual examination " is but will not spend ages hunting - the OP has the information he needs.
As you noted, it shouldn't have been that hard to find.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-15-2020 04:13
I’m happy to hear you and your family are fine.

This virus will change the way we shop, visit friends, and conduct business for a long time. I don’t see it going away for a while.
With this Covid 19 hanging over our head, a lot of clients prefer "outsiders" keep their distance. Now days they want the vendors to drop the goods at the loading dock without even a "Good Day!" For me the work around is video presentations. I am doing one this week for the first time. It isn't as good as being in the same room as the students, but you can see them on your monitor and they can ask questions as if it was a live presentation. The good part is I don't have to leave my house, no airline terminals, no crowded airplanes, and no car rentals to contend with. I can live with it.

Take care of yourself.

Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / visual over radiography, and visual rejection under magnific

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