PQR for D1.1 A513 unlisted to A36 but not using A36 in PQR

Date 10-08-2023 20:10 Edited 10-08-2023 20:12

Task: develop WPS per AWS D1.1 to join ASTM A36 to ASTM A513 type 5 grade 1026 DOM tubing using the GTAW process.

Joint: The production joint is an ASTM A513 type 5 Grade 1026 tube that passes through a hole in ASTM A36 plate. The weld to be performed is a fillet reinforced single bevel around the tube (BTC-P4).

Where it gets interesting: ASTM A513 type 5 grade 1026 is unlisted so we will have to qualify a WPS. Since this joint is a PJP groove weld we will have to qualify a groove weld. The only problem is, ASTM A36 does not come in tubing form. And according to AWS D1.1 Table 6.8 qualifying a WPS using unlisted steel (such as ASTM A513 T5 Gr 1026) to steel listed in table 5.3 (such as ASTM A36) will only qualify for the specific combination of steels listed in the PQR. I took a look at the ASTM A36 specification and found this, 3.1 “When components of a steel structure are identified with this ASTM designation, but the product form is not listed in the scope of this specification, the material shall conform to one of the standards listed in Table 1 unless otherwise specified by the purchaser.” Table 1 mentioned in ASTM A36 section 3.1 then lists cold formed tubing ASTM A500 Grade B.

My question: Would qualifying a WPS using the GTAW process for AWS D1.1 using ASTM A500 grade B in place of A36 to my A513 tubing be acceptable based on what is stated in clause 3.1 in ASTM A36?

Thanks and hopefully someone else has run across this.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-09-2023 11:45

There is zero wiggle room about the necessity of qualifying your WPS.

GTAW is not a prequalified process for AWS D1.1 so the PQR is essential.

If you can get traceable MTRs that dual certify the A36 pipe to another prequalified base metal, that might work.

I would not be confident to submit a PQR for auditing that did not specifically list both base metals. However there may be opportunities to find a base metal with multiple listings. But this also demands that the production steel have the same conformances.

By Seymour86 (*)

Date 10-11-2023 13:37 Edited 10-11-2023 13:41

The problem is that ASTM A36 does not come in pipe/tube form. I spoke with a few pipe suppliers to verify this. Most of the places online listing ASTM A36 pipe for sale are in India or china and after some digging turn out to be ASTM A53, API 5L pipe etc...

ASTM A36/A36M-19 states, "This specification covers carbon steel shapes, plates, and bars of structural quality for use in riveted, bolted, or welded construction of bridges and buildings, and for general structural purposes."
as you can see, no pipe or tube listed.

ASTM A36/A36M-19 also states, "When components of a steel structure are identified with this ASTM designation but the product form is not listed in the scope of this specification, the material shall conform to one of the standards listed in Table 1 unless otherwise specified by the purchaser."
This is where I got ASTM 500Gr.B from. See table 1 below.

Table 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steel rivets A502, Grade 1

Bolts A307, Grade A or F568M, Class 4.6

High-strength bolts F3125/F3125M, Grade A325 or A325M

Steel nuts A563 or A563M

Cast steel A27/A27M, Grade 65–35 [450–240]

Forgings (carbon steel) A668/A668M, Class D

Hot-rolled sheets and strip A1011/A1011M, SS Grade 36 [250] Type 1 or Type 2 or A1018/A1018M, SS Grade 36 [250] Type 1 or Type 2

Cold-formed tubing A500, Grade B

Hot-formed tubing A501

Anchor bolts F1554, Grade 36
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By TimGary (****)

Date 10-11-2023 17:47

I may be underthinking this, but.....

A36 is a D1.1 listed material in groups I and II.
The ASTM A513 type 5 Grade 1026 is unlisted in D1.1.
Qualify the A513 to any D1.1 group I or II material available in the form you need, and the WPS will be good for A513 specifically to any D1.1 Group I or II material.

or

Both A36 and A513 are AWS B2.1 listed materials, categorized as M#1.
Qualify under this spec without having to use the A513 in the PQR, just use any M#1 material.

Tim

By Seymour86 (*)

Date 10-12-2023 14:46

Unfortunately AWS D1.1 Table 6.8 states:
PQR Base Material - unlisted steel to any unlisted steel or any steel listed in table 5.3 or table 6.9
WPS Base Metal Group Combinations allowed by PQR - Only the specific combination of steels listed in the PQR

For the B2.1 ( now I may be overthinking this)
Both ASTM A36 and ASTM A513 grade 1026 are listed as group 1 in B2.1. However, AWS D1.1 Table 6.8 lists the groupings for D1.1, in the notes of Table 6.8 it states that Groups I through IV are found in Table 5.3. Based on that note I can see the argument that A513 grade 1026 would be considered unlisted and would default back to the unlisted material allowable WPS combinations.

The easiest way would probably have our engineer accept a Group I to Group I WPS qualified to B2.1 for use. In my specific application, our outside auditor is a lot more aggressive than our engineer.

By TimGary (****)

Date 10-13-2023 11:40

Well that's a pickle...
D1.1 still requires tensile testing for a stand alone PJP PQR.
It's geared toward heavy structure, and is hard to deal with in non structural applications.
Perhaps the Engineers can get together with someone who knows welding codes and decide on an acceptable substitute such as a more applicable spec, like B2.1 or D14.3.

Tim

By TimGary (****)

Date 10-13-2023 11:42

Have you looked for a SWPS?

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-13-2023 12:12

I'm confused
https://www.dmitubes.com/astm-a36-seamless-pipe.html#specification

By Seymour86 (*)

Date 10-13-2023 23:37

I don't know if there is something lost in translation. That is an Indain website. As stated on the page you just posted:

"Steel Grade:

API 5L: GR B, X42,X46, X56, X60,X65,X70

ASTM A53: GR A, GR B, GR C

EN: S275, S275JR, S355JRH, S355J2H

GB: Q195, Q215, Q235, Q345, L175, L210, L245, L320, L360- L555"

Would be interesting to see what is listed on their MTR though. I talked with a pipe manufacturer here in the states and was told that ASTM A36 does not cover tube. A36 could be rolled into tube but the specification for ASTM A36 does not include tubing or pipe.

By Seymour86 (*)

Date 10-15-2023 17:43

Our company's internal quality control specification does not allow the use of SWPS'. It's a bummer.

By 803056

Date 10-20-2023 21:29 Edited 10-20-2023 21:31

The "Engineer" is given considerable latitude by AWS D1.X Codes. In this case, I would go to the Engineer that represents the Owner and ask for his input, .e.g. "solution" to the quandary.

The Engineer is given the authority to modify the requirements of the D1.X code. He may simply say, "Use ASTM A56 or ASTM A106 pipe in place of the ASTM A36." Problem solved. Get the Engineer's response in writing.

Al

By Seymour86 (*)

Date 10-31-2023 15:41

Thanks Al for theresponce. Thats the easiest/ most feasable route.