Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / New Tig welding machine recommendation
- - By Mike W (**) Date 08-17-2003 02:14
I have been asked to select a new tig machine at work. I was told to get what I think I need plus 50% more. I have only used the typical high freq machine.

It will be used mainly on alumimum, mostly 1/16 to 1/8" thick, to repair damage caused by high voltage arcing. This would involve cutting out the damage and welding in new sections. Sections would normally be a few square inches in size.

Your advice would be appreciated.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-17-2003 04:53
Welcome Mike W.

Both Lincoln Electric and Miller make some decent machines...

I have'nt tried any of ESAB's new equipment though so I could'nt give you an opinion on those. I heard some good things about Thermal Arc's machines... Warranty coverage and the availability of factory trained warranty repair service from the supplier is an important factor to consider...

There are a bunch of factors to consider so, I'll try to mention a few, and if I miss some then, do'nt worry because, I'm sure someone else in the forum will fill in any gaps, and give their opinions, and advice also...

First thing you've got to consider is your input voltage/current supply...
What I mean is, if you've got 208 or 230 or 460 voltage, and whether it's single phase or three phase. Then you got to know what amount of current (Amps) you have available (enough to run the machine based on how much the machine "draws' or needs at maximum settings without being to close to the maximum current available otherwise you'll have to increase the amount that line input needs to run the machine with a comfortable margin so that the circuit breaker does'nt trip all the time.).
Inverter type power sources do this very well because, they require less current input to operate, (Three phase requires less current draw than single phase) so, ask your company whether or not they want to buy a single or three phase machine because, last time I checked they did'nt make amachine that you could switch "on the fly" from single to three phase (you have to open the machine and change the position of the jumper links just to change the line input voltage, and in order to switch from single to 3 phase, the machine must have 3 phase transformers and the appropriate circuitry in order to do so, if they're even available) nevertheless you need to start here...

With varying amounts of line voltage in different area's and regions of the country., Another important factor to consider is power factor correction. During different times of the day, line voltage can fluctuate depending how close you are to other industrial entities... If you have power factor correction, then your machine will be able to compensate for this, and operate without cutting out on you, due to voltage fluctuation occurring at various times of the day... (you need enough steady, consistent voltage in order to force or "push" the necessary amount of current through the the line connected to your machine so that it can run properly.)

Being able to use more than one input voltage amount is also important to consider because if your company wants to expand but, does'nt want to use let's say, use 460VAC, 3phase all over the place then, they could "Tap" off the 460 line and reduce the voltage to 230, using a variety of methods which I wo'nt go into detail, (another subject) so, this is important to discuss this with you company beforehand because, of the added costs of hiring an electrician to do this or if they have someone employed with them that can do this work legitimately which wolud require this person to be pulled off another job, etc...

Another thing you have to consider is how much maximum current output you need from the machine. It's considered good practice to go over the maximum amount that you will need... What I mean by this is, if your highest current requirement of let's say: 250 amps (output current) is needed then, it's a good idea to purchase a machine that can give you at least 300 to 350 amps output so that you do'nt push the machine to premature failure. Although most machines have decent thermal overload protection, it'll only protect the machine for so long because, "somethings gotta give eventually!!!"

You should also consider how much actual welding is going on when you're using a welding machine... Unless you're automating your application, and welding 24/7, a machine with a 60% duty cycle at it's near maximum current output rating should be sufficient for you
{the difference in the costs between some 60% and 100% duty cycle machines at the same near maximum (at actual maximum output, the duty cycle drops substantially) current output rating can be meaningful to say the least!}.

What is duty cycle? I'll simplify this explanation by saying that the amount percentage of let's say: at 60% duty cycle, this tells you that for every ten minutes of continuous welding at near maximum current (amps) output, the machine will give you six minutes of continuous current output before the thermal overload protection circuit shuts the machine's output (welding contactor) down, and the cooling fan comes on (running at lower voltage and current) to cool the components until the temperature reaches a safe operating level.
This could mean alot of delays and wear and tear on your welding machine if you do'nt make the correct decision regarding the amount of duty cycle you really need...

A word of caution: Please do'nt let some salespeople try to sell you a machine with extra's that you really do'nt need, like for example, if your not welding certain stainless steels or exotic alloys where controlling heat input is an issue or welding out of position with root openings on pipe joints , then you really do'nt need a machine with pulsing capabilties or a feature in which you can customize your output waveform (unless they throw it in for no extra charge, yeah right!).

Some machines come sold as packages ready to weld so, you also might want to take into consideration the quality of the components in the package, like the rating and type of the TIG (GTAW) torch, the type of flowmeter/regulator, etc. Having an extra one of each item does'nt hurt to have on hand in case one of your existing components breaks or does'nt work correctly. You want to match up as best as possible, the TIG torch or any other component with the parts you have already available for your existing torch (standardize your torch parts) in order to avoid confusion or lack of available parts for your torches.
Water cooling your torches can be done different ways but, if you do'nt choose the correct coolant, the torches wo'nt last as long as you would like, and neither will your water recirculator, nor will the solenoid valves required to turn on the flow of current...
Do'nt buy a machine that does'nt have built in solenoids that enable you to install a water-cooled torch should the need arise because, you'll regret it later... In other words do'nt buy a machine that does'nt enable you to expand your capabilities either!!!

Well, I'm sure that I did'nt cover everything but, theres a show on cable that I want to watch so, I'll stop here, and finish by reiterating that other well knowledgable people that frequent this forum will also add anything that I missed, and also help you in making the right decision regarding your purchase of a new machine... Gotta go!!!

Let us know what you decide before you buy though, so you can get some feedback about your decision, and make sure that you shop around to get the best overall price not only on the machine but, also on the shielding gas you're going to need also...

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... RunDeep!!!
Parent - - By brande (***) Date 08-17-2003 05:30
Considering your mandate to get what you need and add 50%-I would definitely look into the Lincoln Precision Tig 375. The ready to weld package with water cooler and torches is a decent buy. You should use a water cooled system on aluminum welding.

No, you don't need 375 amps for welding on 1/8 material, but the bigger machines seem to start better, run smoother, etc.

Before the Miller guys start jumping here, I want to state that I have been a Miller only tig guy for many years. (personally own both a Syncrowave and a Dynasty DX, and very particular about my aluminum welding arc). I have even been to their schools in Appleton.
At one point Miller had an edge-the Syncrowave 300 and the 351 were excellent machines on aluminum. The Syncrowave 350 and it's DX derivatives were not as good, in my humble opinion, if you were looking for the "best arc". They did weld very acceptably, though.

Lincoln has done a lot of positive work on their line in recent years. Much of it good, some not as good as we would like.

The Lincoln Squarewave 300 was decent as an introductory machine, but had some problems, none of them related to aluminum tig.
Their SW350 was an exceptional machine. The SW355 was ok, but not equal to the 350 on aluminum. The "auto balance" seemed to negate the very reason you bought an adjustable squarewave machine.
The Precision Tig 375 changed that. This is a very good machine, if you want to stay with a transformer based machine.

Enter the AC/DC inverters. They are good. They are extremely adjustable(sometimes almost too much so). They are very smooth. They weld aluminum much differently than traditional transformer machines (they use a pointed thoriated, ceriated or lanthanated tungsten on AC, for example)

When I got my Miller Dynasty inverter, I was going to dump my 15 yr old Syncrowave. I have found since then that some jobs are better done one machine or the other. Because of this, I have kept both. Relly gives me a range I did not have before.

There are other very high end machines available, but will not really give much more benefit for the greatly increased cost.

In all honesty, you really can't go wrong with a 350 class machine from Lincoln, Miller, or Thermal Arc (Hobart). They all make good, very usable machines.

If you are very fussy about your arc-look at the Lincoln Precision Tig-it is an extremely good machine!!

Try them all, if you can. Remember that service and experienced support from your local distributor is very important as well.

Good Luck

Brande
Parent - By dseman (*) Date 08-17-2003 11:44
Hey Brande,
What jobs in particular do you find that the synchrowave is better at than the dynasty? I thought that with the dynasty's arc quality and range of adjustment, there would be no reason to keep the synchrowave around.

thanks,
dseman
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-17-2003 16:58
Hello brande!

I could'nt agree with you more with everything you mentioned...

I've tried the Lincoln "Precision-TIG 375 and it's a real smooth running machine for a "Transformer" type power source...

I just wanted to add to what you mentioned by including portability as a factor in choosing between transformer and Inverter type power sources...
If portability is an issue then, an Inverter type power source is the way to go in my opinion, and I'm sure it's yours also...

Btw, brande, did you recieve my e-mail?

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... RunDeep!!!
Parent - - By aircraft (**) Date 08-18-2003 01:35
I have no problem with Lincoln every one I have welded with was great but,,,,,every time I go by the dealer (who sells Lincoln and Miller) I look in the service center and its red a far as the eye can see, and maybe six Miller machines. And any time I buy new equipment he won't sell me a Lincoln he somehow talks me out of it, even to the point do give me a better deal on the Miller. Its funny I can get a better price on a Miller by threatening to buy a Lincoln.
I must say again I have nothing against Lincoln or a bad experince. We even bought one for one of our shops a Lincoln invertatech 205 and I was told that when the dealer walked in he picked it up left came back with dynasty 200 and said "that looks much better". Now if he sells Lincolns and Millers why would he do this? He says "I need your buisness so I need you to be happy and in the long run and I feel you will be much more happy if your machine is not in the shop".
Now you tell me is he full of crap?
Parent - By Mike W (**) Date 08-18-2003 03:35
Thanks for the input. I will look at both Miller and Lincoln. Interesting comments about the Lincoln and the dealer.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-18-2003 13:44
To reenforce the excellent advice you have gotten to this point. Here are just one or two things to consider.

If your work is mainly aluminum of varying thickness than a powersource with vairable frequency is really something you might want to have a look at. If you haven't used increased frequency on thin Aluminum (under 0.060) you should have your vendor set up a hands on demonstration (bring coke cans).Also, Dynasty has about 10% more adjustability in balence control than regular square wave powersources, this can be handy from time to tome. If your company has deep pockets, have the vendor set up a Miller Aerowave as well as the most powerful Dynasty to match up with the Lincolns.

My experience with Synchrowave 351's is considerable, too many internal "pot" adjustments to keep low end arc starting for my liking. The power is nice but if you don't need the extra push of the high end, the Synchrowave 250 is far more durable, I think due to is more simple circut board arrangement.

There is my 2 cents

PS. Which ever you decide to buy, a water cooled rig is essencial for top quality Aluminum work. Torch and Electrode life is extended manyfold. Make them put together package deals for your consideration.

Lawrence
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-18-2003 14:13
Hi Lawrence,
Tell me more about the water cooled torches. I have not seen one in action and was wondering how the water plays a part. Is there a circulation pump and a holding tank? Radiator with a fan to expel the heat out of the water? I've heard some about them here in the forum and was trying to picture what they might consist of.In my shop the welders just bare the brunt of the heat with thick gloves and leathers. I was told that the 850A machines we run didn't work with the water cooled torches because of the 600A guns that are required.
Curious,
John Wright
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-18-2003 14:39
You run Tig at 600-800 amps?

Mercy!

Yes the coolers can be self contained right with the machine on a cart if your portable or if your stationary can be used inline with several powersources. They can be run with the contactor via solonoid or full time at the flip of a switch (my prefrence).

I have no experience at the ranges you are talkin about but on the other hand, a water cooled WP20 (the size generally used for 1/16 tungstens) can be rated around 250 amps. With a water cooler and a full length tungsten you can really weld alot hotter than with an air cooled rig. For example, with a water cooled small torch and a, lets say synchrowave 250 (nuthin fancy) you can run about 100 amps AC balence control 70% with a 1/16 tungsten without much tip distortion. The same torch with a 3/32 tungsten will approach 200 amps AC. This just can't be done with an air cooled torch.

Water cooled torches are a bit more costly, have an extra hose, require some periodic troubleshooting, (hose leaks), but for multi-function or dedicated aluminum booth I think its a real asset.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-18-2003 14:49
Lawrence,
Maybe I better explain something first (just a small snicker) :), I use these 600A (MIG) guns with a Miller Demension 652 along w/ a Series 60 wire feeder (FCAW machines). Maybe that will explain the high amperages mentioned earlier. I had heard that they make 400A water cooled guns, but I personally haven't seen one in action, therefore the question. Sorry for catching you sorta off the subject at hand.
John Wright
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-18-2003 15:40
JW,

Roger that!

My new shop (just made a career change), has among a large array of big Blue powersources, several Dimension 400s, all air cooled, so I'm sure I'll be after you with some questions about them as time goes on.

So rest assured there will be more to snicker about and soon :)

Lawrence
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-18-2003 15:48
Congrats on your move, hope it was for the better and not a "have to". Fabricators are closing every day, nowadays. Work is still out there, it's just so cheap, no profit on it like it used to be. Shops are having to get leaner and smarter to stay alive. Skilled labor is harder to find as those knowledgeable older guys are retiring and no one to take their place. I have about three to four years and my shop will be losing a lot of experience to retirement.
John Wright
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / New Tig welding machine recommendation

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill