Stovepipe Welding???

Date 10-16-2003 13:13

Sorry that I can't answer your question. I have my own question to add. I don't know what is meant by stovepipe welding is. Can you explain for me and others who might not know? I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Chet Guilford

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-17-2003 13:57

Hi Chet,
According to the U.K. welding forum, the same question was asked and, what I read was that it originated from the fabrication of smokestacks from stoves hence, the term "Stovepipe welding" was coined when welding electrodes were in their infancy they would only work well in the vertical down position as they were lime coated pieces of steel rod.
The term is still used today usually on cross country pipelines, although I never heard of it used over here, and get this - using a cellulosic electrode such as a Fleetweld 5P...
If I remember correctly, I think the term used in the states is: "single hand" downhill welding?
Hey Rodofgod, I'm surprised that you did'nt read this in the U.K. welding forum!!! What gives??? http://www.ukwelder.com

My sister returned from the U.K. on a business trip yesterday, and she told me that she was treated very rudely, and was disheartened at the level of coldness she got from the people while she was there!!!
I find this very hard to believe!!! Is there that much animosity towards americans over there because of the war??? Is it true that you should refrain from speaking while riding the rails??? I mean , I always liked the British People when they visited the states, mainly in New York City, and when I was in Holy loch... Please say it is'nt so!!! No disrespect!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By Michael Sherman (***)

Date 10-17-2003 16:48

I was on a short vacation in Maine last month, while on a whale watching excursion I struck up a conversation with a couple from Wales. We were discussing Pres. Bush's oceanside residence as we sailed past it. I had a 6 hour running conversation with them and found them to be extremely pleasant with no animosity at all. In fact just yesterday I received an e-mail from them. I don't think they are any more rude than other people and quite possibly more polite than most Amercans. Just my opinion. Oh and we also use 5P+ for downhand cross country pipe welding.

Mike Sherman
Shermans Welding

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-17-2003 23:49

Hi Mike!
That 5P+ is a beautiful rod!!! since it became available, I've used it to train welding students after they have somewhat gotten used to welding with 5P... Some of them have actually gottenupset that I did'nt teach them how to use the 5P+ first but, when switching back to 5P afterwards, they begin to understand the method to my madness!!!

JTMcC,
Thanks for educating me on the terminology pipeliners use here in the states!!! I learn something new everyday!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By rodofgod (**)

Date 10-17-2003 22:39

Hi SSBN727!!!
Sorry to here that your Sister had such a bad experience over here in the U.K.,My profound appolgies! I bet She was visiting London or 'down south' as we northerners call it!!! Next time She's over, tell her to 'cum up north' where her welcome WILL be made!! I've never been aware of any animosity toward any U.S. citizen because of the latest war or any other war come to that!!!!
My original question came from the 'ukwelder forum' as I thought stovepipe welding was an American term-Wrong!
'Stovepipe Welding' is the term used in the U.K. to define the welding of (usually) cross-country pipelines using 'Vertically down' MMA techniques.
Mainly this technique is used because of it's speed and productivity, not it's quality!
It's usual to have a two man team just performing the 'Rooting' and another team following on, filling and capping the welds!
This method is also used in the laying of sub-sea oil/gas lines between the U.K. and the rest of Europe!
Again,I must appologise for the treatment your Sister recieved over here!
Some people are just so 'short-sighted'

Glenn Webb

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-17-2003 23:34

Rodofgod,
I must agree with you because, every experience I personally had with anyone from the U.K. was, and still is a refreshing one at that!!!
My sister did mention that she did go south of London for a couple of days... Ahh yes!!! my experiences in the north (Scotland and Wales included) were exhilarating to say the least so, no need to apologize to me!!! My sister was probably overtired (jetlag), and was probably irritable about her trip when she returned home... I have since spoken to her again about the matter, and she admitted that she might have overstated her initial comments to me... She feels bad about unitntentionally "stereotyping" the rest of the people in the U.K. based on her experience in London, and in the south! I let her know that as an Hispanic-American (Cuban & Dominican), I reminded her that she should not rush to judgement as so many do towards us because, two wrongs does'nt make a right!!! My sister, and myself wish to apologize to you and the rest of the great folks in, and from the U.K.!!! Whoever those "Jerks' were obviously does'nt realize that what goes around, comes around!!!
The next time she visits, she'll make sure that she ventures north,and maybe I'll travel with her!!! If I do, I'll make sure to drop you a line!!!
Thanks for clearing this up with me!!!
What you described is done basically the same way here in the states regarding the technique you mentioned with respect to welding cross country pipelines... Thanks for your reply!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By JTMcC

Date 10-17-2003 23:34

Hi Glen,

I've never been to the UK but my Dad worked there on several occasions and always enjoyed his time there.

What concerns do you have about the quality of properly welded downhill joints? Why should the quality be any less than that of an uphill joint? This work see's harsh inspection in the U.S. and welders in any gas related field typically are required to retest every 6 months, usually a battery of test's including the standard 12" on 12" inverted branch, cut by hand, plus the variety of butt welds the company likes, from 3/4" to 42" 1.000 wall. Pressures normally run well over 1000psi in transmittion lines. RT and hydro are a given. And this is done in a very fast paced enviroment.
The typical pipeliner in this country works building trades jobs when pipeline work is slow so he generally has done several tours in powerhouses, chemical plants, refineries, ect.
In the U.S. a pipeline spread will normally have two "bead hands" welding the initial stringer bead, two "hot pass hands" making the hot pass, and then whatever number of firing line hands filling and capping that it takes to keep up, a somewhat good rule of thumb is one firing line hand per inch of pipe, that is on 42" pipe you might have 42 welders in the firing line filling and capping.
I've heard the term stovepipe used here in two different ways, some use it too mean welding very thin wall pipe and some use it to mean pipe fabrication done one piece at a time, in place as opposed to fabricating in jacks. Neither use seem very common tho.
As for the term single hand, that is a welder without a welding rig.

regards,
JTMcC.

By JTMcC

Date 10-17-2003 23:45

5P+ (not 5P), is the normal rod used for the stringer bead but after that most jobs call for 70+ (which is an 8010) or the new version of it which I believe is called 80P. Sometimes on low grade pipe they will call for fill and cap with 5P or 5P+. Sometimes they will call for downhill LoHi. Lincoln has a brand new line of pipeline consumables that's just coming out.

regards,
JTMcC.

By TRC

Date 10-18-2003 00:40

Heyyyyy Glennnn the quality of a downhand or downhill weld IS known for it's quality as well as the other atributes you mentioned. I have viewed thousands of feet of film to API 1104 that would make any B31.1 inspector happy.
As someone else mentioned in another post "It's not so much the car as it is the driver".
Here are some other facts you may find interesting- not in any specific order and I hope anyone would correct my info when applicable. *Lincoln 5P+ is used for the root bead on X42 all the way up to X70
*A typical weld is done with a 1/8" for the root, 5/32" hot pass and 3/16 fill and cap.
* Two welder on a joint is called "brother in law". Quite often the welders are far from home and in some states like Arkansas there are small towns that the primary employment is pipeline. And family sticks together.
*When running a full blown "spread" a "tractor" which is a bulldozer without the blade will have two to four power sources mounted on the back of it depending on the pipe size. This is called the "tack rig". These welders apply the root bead using an internal line up clamp. The pipe is set on "skids" usually 4"X6" oak timbers by a "side boom" tractor with a small crane mounted to it's side. Another tractor follows one joint behind applying the hot pass. Behind them is the "Firing Line". This consists of "rig welders" applying the fill and cap. There are generally 10 or more welders in the fire line depending on the wall thickness.
*It's not uncommon to get a mile of pipe welded in one day. I believe the are some welders out of Tulsa that use " A mile a day" as their moto.

I could go on for a long time but the welders are part of a team. And recongniztion HAS to be given the eneryone who works pipeline from the "hoe hands" to the "swampers", don't forget "bussy" and the hands back at the "Warehouse".

Keep the torch burning- Ted

By JTMcC

Date 10-18-2003 00:45

The only thing I would add to Ted's post is that lately the root pass is done with 5/32" on all but small pipe and these days the hot pass is often 3/16".

JTMcC.

By rodofgod (**)

Date 10-18-2003 22:04

Thanks for all the posts!!
I stand corrected on the 'quality' comment!! Been doing some further research into the subject and I must say the output and quality of this processes IS outstanding!!!
But my original comment on quality was aimed at the mechanical side, not the welding quality. I remember performing a weld procedure many years ago with vertically-down MMA and we just couldn't get it thru the hardness / impact tests! Maybe things have changed now,with electrodes etc, it's not an area I'm real familar with!
Do any of you 'cross-country' people think that modern processes like Flux-core and especially the 'gasless' wires like the 'NR' series, will start to take over from MMA?

By JTMcC

Date 10-20-2003 14:06

Flux core wire can be found in stationary settings such as fabrication shops and yards but not much in the field.
Automatic welding came on big about 4 or 5 years ago on the Alliance (?) line, but many contractors went back to manual stick afterward. Automatic requires a small mobile building over every joint.
It's pretty common to see people who don't know or understand pipelining to comment on the stone age traditions on the pipeline. And how this backward, antiquated approach limits productivity. One thing they don't take into account is that whatever equipment used on a pipeline will be drug through the mud, sit in the rain, have high winds drive sand, silt and dirt into it, work in temperatures over 115 degrees to below freezing, ride on the back of a welding rig over maybe 60 miles of very rough right of way per day, get dropped and run over ect. And, any breakdown slows the whole process down.
I think with the amount of welding done in a typical day, the fatigue of manipulating a flux core gun would be a problem. Very long guns would be needed to avoid moving the feeder constantly on large bore pipe.
Anyway, I don't plan on seeing stick go away in my lifetime, it will probable slowly lose ground tho.

regards,
JTMcC.

By Bill A

Date 07-21-2004 18:39

we use gas shielded FCAW for maintenance welding (large hot taps, etc.) in the field. The slow adoption of wire feed processes for large pipeline construction projects is an anomaly of the US, as far as I can tell. It used used routinely and very successfully with outstanding productivity and mechanical properties in Canada, offshore, and I believe parts of Europe. As pipe strength increases beyond X80 I think you will see SMAW have a more difficult time matching/overmatching pipe properties and wire processes will be more frequently used.

By JTMcC

Date 07-21-2004 23:58

Not knowing what you refer to when you say "we", I really don't gain any insite into the use of dual shield on pressure piping.
Who is we? What type of piping? Where? What pressure? what size line pipe? Who do you work for?
What lines have been laid in Canada with flux core wire? I know Canada adopted the "bug", automatic welding years ago, but I haven't heard of any main lines laid with flux core wire. I always want to learn, so if you have factual evidence of it, I would like to know.
Which parts of Europe, again, I try to keep abreast of pipeline welding methods across the globe, but I'm sure I miss a lot.
My post reflects pipeline welding as it is today, not as some hope it to develope in the future. Feel free to correct me with specific facts wherever applicable.

JTMcC

By Bill A

Date 07-22-2004 17:34

ooops - sorry about that. I am involved with gas piping construction, operation and maintenance. The piping includes grades up through X70 and dia. up to 36-inch, although I don't think we have used the FCAW on X70 yet.

It was not my intention to suggest that FCAW is in widespread use for PL construction, but rather to indicate that a lot of welding is done with something other than SMAW. If you re-read my message I said my experience was with FCAW because that is what we have transitioned to for a lot of our in-service welding work, but my reference to experience in Canada etc. used the more generic process description of "wire feed" which obviously includes GMAW, and you probably are already aware of the common use of GMAW and its variants including those using multiple wires on multiple bugs. I consider the work by Transcanada Pipelines to be among the most technically agressive for new PL construction, although I think it is still using primarily or entirely solid wire.

By JTMcC

Date 07-22-2004 22:49

Do you work for a transmittion co? Distribution co? P/L contractor?

I'm not trying to be nosey, you can contact me via e mail if you want.
I'm very curious where dual shield is in use on hot taps. What wire? What size? What gas?

Inquiring minds want to know <g>.

JTMcC.

By 357max

Date 10-24-2003 14:09

Stove pipe welding is a weld joint where there is a pipe with a female (upset) socket on one end and a male pin on the other end. The male pin of one pipe joint is stabbed into the female socket of another pipe joint. Just as "stove pipe" is joined for exhausting fire box fumes and smoke. The resulting weld joint is a fillet weld. Either vertical down or up weld progression is used to weld the joint. Similar in principle to the "sock-o-let" joining except one side of the sock-o-let is already formed on the pipe.

By rodofgod (**)

Date 10-29-2003 22:27

Hi 375max JTMcC,
Thanks for you input! I feel I've got a good 'insight' into cross-country pipeline welding from your posts! It's been an eye-opener, I can tell you!!!

Now you mention that paticular joint configaration, I remember a Job several years ago with that same joint! A 48 inch cross-country pipeline for 'mains' water!!
I think that your right in your definition of 'Stovepipe Welding' but it's been applied to general cross-country pipeline welding (any joint configaration) using vertical-down MMA methods over the years!!!!
Thanks!

Glenn Webb

By KiwiTrev (*)

Date 07-17-2004 01:23

Hi all,
First time user here from down under in NZ, can anyone give a "dummies guide to cellulosic pipewelding",I have seen the terms "Flick & Stovepipe techniques" and references to the "Skunk position" but do ya think I can find any good descriptions on how to???
Any help appriciated!

Trev

By Bill A

Date 07-22-2004 17:50

According to the 1950 version of the Lincoln Electric Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding Design and Practice stovepipe welding is the same form of welding that occurs in bellholes, i.e., pipe welded in the fixed position, as opposed to the previously used practice of "roll welding" in which several joints of pipe are welded together on the surface while the pipe lengths are turned under the arc or torch prior to being lowwered into the trench. The joint design is described as "...usually plain-end without liner" and makes no reference to bell and spigot type of joints that were popular in pipeline construction in the US until about the early or mid 1930s