Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Duplex SS, root penetrating problem..
- - By GOKHANYAMAN (*) Date 10-20-2003 13:24
Hi everbody,

For tie-in point (for Duplex SS pipe weld), soluble paper and type
were used, inside of pipe, 100 mm from each side of weld groove in order to keep purging gas. Purging gas supplied from weld groove (outside) and going out from a few holes made on soluble paper inside of pipe.
Material : 6" x 7.11 mm (Duplex stainless steel pipe)
"V" grove
~4 mm root space with ~1 mm root face
Gas : Argon (99 %)
Filler Rod: ER 2209 (2.4 mm dia.)
Welding process : GTAW

The problem is that: Welder could not penetrate the root pass inside of the pipe.

All condition is same before without any problem except that using soluble paper instead of a sponge

Could you please give your advise why not penetrating the root pass?

P.S. Welder is same, welding with sponge (RT ok) and welding with soluble paper (no root penetration)

Thanks for your useful advices..

Regards..






Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-20-2003 19:36
Hi GOKANYAMAN!
I do'nt mean to be rude but, what was the problem about using the sponge like before that made you change over to using the soluable paper in the first place? I mean, if it works, do'nt try to fix it especially if you were getting good RT's with the sponge... Was it the inspector that did'nt approve because of the potential for the sponge to absorb humidity in the air prior to purging? The argon gas is only 99% pure? Try to get higher purity like 99.9 something?

In a previous thread, I posted some websites that offer a variety of purging systems, and even one on how to employ one of them correctly...
Look up the thread by clicking my name written in blue, and I'm sure you'll find the info because, I posted these websites very recently...
I look foward to your comments... if you cannot find them let me know so that I can post them again...

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-20-2003 20:17
Gokanyaman,

Look for the thread: "camara para soldadura tubos inoxidible" in the "Shop Talk" section of this forum posted on I believe October 14, 2003 01:03
This gentleman is from Chile and that's why he wrote his query in spanish. My reply to him was written in english so, enjoy!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By rodofgod (**) Date 10-20-2003 22:23
Hi GOKHANYAMAN,

I must ask you 'why change?'
But I would guess that the soluble paper is not as 'free-flowing' as the sponge and causing a build-up or back pressure of argon in the pipe thus preventing root penetration.Even though you've stated that the welder has 'vent' holes in the paper, I would increase the number or turn down the purging gas (what are you running that at)?


Good Luck,


Glenn Webb
Parent - - By GOKHANYAMAN (*) Date 10-21-2003 03:19
Hi glenn, SSBN727,

I understand your point that Why did I need to change using the spunge to Soluble paper. However, I have already mentioned that tie-in joint shall be welded. So, there is no change to remove the sponge from inside of the pipe after completed the welding. I have to use soluble paper.

I am trying to find the previous posts, but I will appriciate if you send them again for me..

Thanks.
Regards..
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-21-2003 05:00
gokhanyaman!
If you were using a sponge previously and it worked well then, it's probably because like rodofgod (Glenn) mentioned, the argon was flowing more freely through the sponge as opposed to the soluable paper dam... oh yeah, get rid of the sponge!!!
Try using a lower cfh rate to compensate for the increase in pressure within the dam that occurred when you switched from the sponge to the paper... Are you using an oxygen sensor? This device helps you check accurately how many ppm's of oxygen are in the purge zone...
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the recommendations were to have a reading of approximately 700 to 1000 ppm's of Oxygen maximum within the purge zone... This first website of the list below is a .pdf file that's a basic manual on how to properly purge stainless pipe...


http://www.intercononline.com/welding/ypurge.htm
http://www.dissolvo.com/how_to.htm
http://www.huntingdonfusion.com/argweld.html

No disrespect gokhanyaman but, it's a good idea/practice to learn how to use the search feature in this forum so that if you need answers to your questions, you can find them without waiting to read from anybody replying to your original post... Just a thought...
I hope this info will help your situation so. please let us know if it does...
Good Luck, and all the best!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By rodofgod (**) Date 10-21-2003 21:36
Hi GOKHANYAMAN, SSBN727,

Some very good links SSBN727!!! Although the first one seems to be out of date. I particularly liked the mention of halogens in reguard to 'tape', on the Intercon link! Quite relavant to this post I thought!!

'Purging thru the butt' as we call it over here, is notoriously difficult! although unavoidable at some stage of welding operations!
As SSBN727 has already mentioned, your welder needs to make sure that O2 levels are low enough before starting welding by use of a O2 sensor (A bit out with your PPM SSBN727!!). You really need to be well below 50 PPM for Duplex, if not lower! Also, it's equally important to make sure that the 'purge' is stable and not fluctuating whilst welding is being performed,I've seen this happen alot! Take lots of readings with your O2 meter!
Other than this and the advice given in the previous posts (and links), I'm afraid it's a case of trial and error! The problem will seem so simple once it's solved!!!!

Good Luck!

Glenn Webb



Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-22-2003 05:21
Hi Glenn!

When I mentioned the ppm's, I was talking in general, and not specifically Duplex!!! As you mentioned before for Duplex, 50 ppm's is about right (Maximum) when considering having to also pass a g.48 test also (Corrosion test) besides an RT, and mechanical tests...
You're absolutely correct about the fact that duplex stainless pipe, GTAW root, and all the way out - is one of the hardest tests to pass consistently!!! Ti pipe is no joke either especially if you're not used to having a trailing shield on your torch, and you lose track of your gas coverage on your filler rod, purge O2 level...
At least two of those links are on your side of the pond!!!
Youngsters like you are always quick to challenge us older farts especially when it comes to "generalized" statements...
That's okay in my book because it keeps us sharp!!!
Btw, alot of the so-called out of date data is still applicable so do'nt knock it just because it's not that current!!! In fact, If you have anything more current, by all means, please share it with us!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By rodofgod (**) Date 10-22-2003 09:23
Hi SSBN727,
'Youngsters' like me should have made ourselves more clear!!

When I said 'out of date',I should have said 'Inactive' Think they've changed their web pages and deleted your link!!
It's nice to be called a youngster though!!!!

Glen Webb


Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-22-2003 12:59
Hi Glenn, JW, and let's not forget GOKHANYAMAN!

Thanks for clarifying what was going on with those links!!!
Glenn, they did'nt delete the article but, the direct link to the article will no longer take you or anybody else to the .pdf so, that was the problem! Go figure they decided to change things like they always do!!!
There's also a couple of bonus articles which I did'nt come across when I made my original query so, please indulge yourselves!!!
As far as the Cob industries website goes, I'll reply later because I'm in sort of a rush to get out of here!!! I've got to get some blood work done for transplant maintanence/hip surgery to make sure there's no infection... Routine stuff for me so, do'nt worry!!!
Anyway, here is the link for Air products technical articles regarding stainless steel purging, and Duplex/Super-Duplex shielding gases, etc.
When you get there, click the .pdf file you want to look at:
http://www.airproducts.com/nr/exeres/b41f3a93-c784-4799-bb27-fc6b120bacfd.htm

Let's see if this adress for Cob Industries works:

http://www.cob-industries.com/
Sure Does from here!!!
Talk to you gents later...

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-22-2003 11:30
SS,
The "Air Products" and "Cob Industries" links were the ones that didn't work as intended.
John Wright
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-23-2003 05:12
Hey JW, Rodofgod, and GOKHANYAMAN!
The links work fine NOW!!!
Check-em out!!!
I think you're right about that intercon site being the most informative Glenn!!! Maybe I should've referred to that site in the first place before posting those ppm's... Oh well - Now I know that it's been too long since I've welded Ti or Duplex type stainless... No harm done I hope...
Oh yeah, the O2 sensor/indicator/analyzer must be able to read at least 1ppm or .0001% if possible, and these are'nt cheap, yet they are well worth it if you're going to weld alot of Ti & Duplex stainless pipe/tubing!!! Heck! If Air Products/BOC can read down to ppb's (parts per billion) then there should be something out there within reason
(a little over $4100 US dollars w/replacement filter for the "Cadillac", and less for one that needs more maintenance/replacement parts from Intercon so, do the math!!!) as far as price is concerned!!!
Make sure that your flow rate is slow (cfh=cubic feet per hour) enough not to over pressurize, and overmix the purge gas with the existing O2 that's in the atmosphere of the purge zone!!! Very Important!!!
In summary, Using the correct equipment, lowering the amount of ppm's in your purge zone, and waiting long enough for that to occur by constantly monitoring/analyzing/indicating your purge O2 levels will definitely help you achieve the consistency you're client is looking for Gokhanyaman! I mean, just look at those examples in the intercon website!!! Get the picture??? Thanks for keeping me sharp Glenn!!!
By the way Gokhanyaman, can you tell us what this piping is for, in other words, what is the application for, and where is it being
performed???
Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-23-2003 13:17
Hi GOKHANYAMAN!
I read your original post and now that I've re-read your description as to how you're feeding the Argon that's only 99% pure (MUST BE LAB GRADE FOR DUPLEX!!!) into the weld groove from the outside, and flowing out through a couple of holes that were made into the soluable paper, is this what you're saying??? I ask this because if it is,then there's big part of your problem right there!!! Without a doubt, this is an inappropriate method of purging this "tie-in joint" PERIOD!!! I'll explain why...

1.) By feeding the gas from the outside of the weld groove, you are creating turbulence (Asymmetric vortices like in fluid dynamics) inside the pipe causing the atmosphere inside, and already present, to mix with the purging gas instead of passing through the soluable paper to be replaced by the argon purge itself!!! Find a different route or location to supply your purging gas into the inside of the groove or weld purge zone!!!
Otherwise you'll end up with problems where the backside of the root pass is showing incomplete penetration throughout the circumference (weld length) in the radiograph then, when the welder gets to the end of the root to close it up, that's exactly where the root will show an unusal indication (caused by the inability of the welder to mitigate the purge turbulence at that location) and as a result, that will be unacceptable in the RT...
Not only this will fail consistently in an RT but also, the amount of O2 contamination present inside the joint purge zone, due to the unusually high level of O2 concentration from the mix of the atmosphere with the not as pure as one would like, argon on the backside of the root(99.998% would be nice if possible but, usually 99.995% is lab grade), will also cause it to fail the corrosion test, even if it passes the mechanical test by chance!!! How the root pass where the tie-in of the beginning of the root pass to the end was acceptable in the first place, is an anomoly to say the least!!!
In this application, turbulence means that the Argon is mixing with the atmosphere, and loitering in the purge zone because there is too much internal pressure building up inside of the joint where the welding is taking place!!! The reason for this is the insufficient emptying of the atmosphere due to your set-up (not enough holes in your soluable paper to let the atmosphere flow through in order to prevent "mixing"!)... In other words, too much flow going in from outside which is creating these asymmetric vortices, and not enough of what was only atmosphere inside the pipe flowing out through the soluable paper to empty out what is left of the initial mix which noramally occurs at the start of the purge!!! This is also causing turbulence in the weld zone (puddle itself), because of too much positive pressure coming out from the internal purge zone which is building up pressure at the root opening, and in turn has the potential to push up the weld puddle, shielding gas up and away from the puddle itself, especially when you reach the end of the weld length!!! (any porosity at the crater?) Therefore,the internal turbulence is not letting the root of the weld deposit to penetrate consistently if at all, and letting the weld become contaminated inside out!!!
2.) Now you did'nt mention at all if you are using an O2 sensor/analyzer/indicator so, it's safe to say that you have no idea of the O2 content in the purge zone itself or how long to purge prior to the start of welding!!! Now if your client expects you to have a root pass that looks like it was polished as it was welded then, I strongly suggest that you monitor the O2 content in the purge zone repeatedly until you're satisfied that the indicator shows you O2 ppm levels no higher than 10ppm's (Why not use the ppm's recommended for Ti as your standard acceptable O2 level)!!! No if's ands or butts!!! Pardon the pun... Duplex & Super Duplex, and Titanium (Ti is a little more sensitive) are almost identical when they react to even low levels of O2 present during welding... Now I do not know which code you are working from but, I can say with confidence that unless you take our suggestions to heart, your welds will not be acceptable according to the three conditions you must meet!!! (Acceptable RT, Mechanical, and Corrosion test which for the most part is initially based on how the backside of the root looks visually, no discoloration whatsoever in the weld root or a HAZ = Heat Affected Zone, and what I used to call a "chemical wipe" on the root pass, both inside and out )... It's slowly coming back to me!!! My distant memory that is... Oh I almost forgot, the face, and HAZ of each pass has to have no discoloration also!!!
Did you increase or decrease the flow rate when you changed from the sponge to the paper? By one not adjusting the flow rate when changing purge ballast mediums then, excessive internal pressure build-up and mixing can occur also!!! As a result, this will probably slow down or increase your travel speed which is sometimes overlooked when one battles with turbulence, causing excessive heat input, and not enough also in certain locations!!! There is more to point out but, I'll just let someone else give you some more pointers to hopefully solve your dilemma
No disrespect but, I'm tired so, I'm going to take a power nap...........
Oh Yeah, I almost forgot!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-24-2003 23:07
Hi GOKHANYAMAN!
One last question... Have you considered using some Nitrogen with Argon (Duplex 1&2 gas or similar mixture) for your sheilding gas? I ask this because it might improve the metallurgical/mechanical properties of the weld itself when one is working with duplex stainless steels... Check out the Air Product website shown in my previous reply, and click the link titled: "Shielding gas developments for TIG welding Duplex, and Super-Duplex Stainless Steels". In order so you can see for yourself!!!
Just a thought.

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By rodofgod (**) Date 10-25-2003 23:44
Hi All!!
This method of welding the closing butt of a pipeline is not uncommon in the U.K. and Europe!!!! And it is possible to 'pass' all the tests (NDT,DT and corrision) that are relevant to the specific code,by this method!
Although it is far from easy!
As the oringinal test was successful with the 'foam' dam',this indicateds that the change to 'paper' dam has changed the 'paremeters' somewhat!
Have you done a PQR to this new welding parameter?
'Purging thru the butt' need's to be closely monitered and the purge must always be 'bent' away from the weld prep and into the void provided by the dam!This way, interference with the weld will be at a minimum! Use of a gauge to measure
O2 content of the pipe is a must! The lower the better!
The above recommendations are all relavent to your query and must be taken into account!
Parent - By GOKHANYAMAN (*) Date 10-31-2003 13:31
Hi Everybody..

I will write about latest trial and result soon...

Just keep following...

Regards..
Parent - - By GOKHANYAMAN (*) Date 11-11-2003 12:23
hi ssbn727, rodofgod and jwright650,

First of all, let me explain that:

Before I write or ask about some subject related with welding/inspection, I am resourcing the subject from standards/specs/some web sites or from experienced welders/supervisor.
If I could not get any answer or solution then I write this forum where really experinced and helpfull people available.

I could not find my question's answer anywhere (web site/books etc.. or any welder/supervisor), because it was unusual method for purging gas for DSS as ssbn727 could cought it after re-read.

I asked many welders/welding supervisor (experienced) this question, I got all same answer : We had never used method like that purging gas from outside of the weld groove.

You were right ssbn727 (however, have you ever tried that method..??), I tried with my one experienced welder. And 30-40 % sucsesfull... that was the my question and answer.. I have spent almost 2 days, then I saw this is an inappropriate method of purging,although knowing that.

Conclusions, (good points ssbn727)
1- this method is an inappropriate method of purging.
2- this method creating turbulence (Asymmetric vortices like in fluid dynamics) inside the pipe causing the atmosphere inside
3- related item 2, O2 contamination present inside the joint purge zone

Here are lots of experienced people in this forum and there are lots of things to learn and to teach or to ask and to reply. Otherwise, why we rae here ..? : )

Thanks a lot, all : )

P.S. We cut out the pipe from 3 location and used same purging method as we used before. Now, everything is ok.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-12-2003 15:41
Hi Gokhanyaman!
I'm glad you found uot the solution to your problem!!!
To answer your question as to whether or not I had ever used that method of purging - the answer would be a definite NO!!!
In any event, by going back to the method that did work prevoiusly just goes to show that; "If it works - Do'nt fix it!!!!"
All the best!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Duplex SS, root penetrating problem..

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill