Aluminum certifications

Date 10-27-2003 19:31

Hi Steve,

If it was me, for a one time CYA application, I would use ASME Section IX. I would test in the 6G position using the base metal and filler metal that the WPS specifies. I would include a note (on the WPQR) to the effect that "This WPQR is issued to certify the named welder to perform welding in accordance with the referenced WPS, for the project specified." I would add: "Note, Since the job specification does not require certification to any particular welding code, ASME Section IX has been deemed most appropriate for the intended application."

Although not stated, make sure you comply with all the essential and non essential variables specified on the WPS.

Without more info, that is how I would start out. Obviously this is a serious project, so I would run all this by the client ahead of time.

Good luck,
Charles

By stever

Date 10-27-2003 20:19

Thanks Charles.

I have looked over the welding specifications and it is a tube lap joint with overlapping weld beads. The spec is calling for grinding the factory weld and then covering that weld with four stringers and a fifth and final wash weld that covers the stringers. The spec is very detailed on how to make each weld and gage use, cleaning, and other minute details down to how many feet and inches of filler wire will be used. The material is 5356.

Do you think the ASME Section IX is still the way to go?

By dasimonds (**)

Date 10-28-2003 03:36

I would definately pay attention to what Mr. Hall has to say.

But this being a motorcycle frame, And I assume , tubing, but 4 stringer beads? And a 5th(Again, I assume to completely cover all 4 stringer beads without filler wire) final wash? Sounds like overkill to me, but who am I to say. I would like to hear from the Al experts, such as Lawrence, and others, on this.

Pardon my ignorance, but... CYA?

Dale Simonds

By Brett B (*)

Date 10-28-2003 12:11

Stever,

This wouldn't happen to be the Honda Goldwing frame recall would it ?

I would think that you would be using D1.2 Aluminum welding, I have the
Honda weld safety recall book and they are being very open on the repair
only calling out the filler metal ( ER5356 ) and the sequence of the welds. The kit does complete with grinding gauges, weld gauge and
marking templates. Not alot of people are to happy with having just anyone weld these for Honda. They had a local Honda representative
came in a give a seminar on the repair work. As long as the repair is
followed to the lettter the weldor and the dealership are not responsible.

This is a big thing for Honda to get straightened out, the local dealer
around here is expecting 30 bikes for repairs.

Brett B.

By chall

Date 10-28-2003 12:45

Hi again,

The repair sequence described is pretty specific. I would still hang my hat on Section IX. The basis for my approach is this...the WPS is required to be followed to the letter. A QC inspector or the shop foreman will have the responsibility for making sure compliance is maintained. You still have the responsibility to make sure the welders are capable of performing a satisfactory weld. A 6G test is as good as it gets. That said, if all the joints you will be welding are identical, you could set up mock-ups of the actual joint. Section IX has a provision for this type of qualification also. For what you describe, qualification is based on making sure there is complete fusion in the root, with no unacceptable indications. This type of test requires close monitoring to assure that the mock-up accurately shows what will be encountered in production.

I'm not familiar with D1.2, but it could be a good alternative. It is probably very similar to the other AWS codes. It probably has welder performance qualification requirements that are very close to Section IX.

Dale - CYA is: cover your.....er...assets

Charles

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-28-2003 13:12

In the name of healthy conjecture I would guess that since the repair is warranty work that if Bike maker in question demanded welder certification they would be required to bear the cost burden for it, therefore they don’t.

The idea of 4 stringers and a *wash* pass to replace 1 weld sounds weird to me. In the specs I’ve encountered, filler is required on every pass especially in 60XX series aluminum. What is the base material for the frame/structure?

Its good that the instructions are detailed. Is there an interpass temp requirement? The thought of 5 passes in the place of one makes me think of a big soft spot where heat treat would be changed in an expanded heat affected zone.

For Dale….. CYA = cover your arse, and I would agree if somebody is willing to pay it’s the best idea; and when word gets around that they have done it I bet business from several states might come in to defray the expense.

By stever

Date 10-28-2003 15:39

Brett B, you are correct Sir! This is the Honda Gold Wing Recall repair.

As I said earlier, the persons doing the welding do not have to be certified. However, the company owner wants them to be certified so that future problems or questions will be held to a minimum. There is no question about should or should not be certified. This person says his weldors will be certified. Again, he believes in CYA or Cover Your ASSets.

The welding procedure, per Honda, does show four stringer beads and then a wash cover. The wash can use filler wire to bring the weld up to spec. As Brett B states the repair kit tells exactly where to grind and weld. It tells how many passes, how thick each bead will be, how much overlap, and yes, how to put the fifth wash pass on.

Back to my original question, what code book should be referenced to qualify the weldors? This is not a full penetration pipe weld. It is a lap joint that will weld over the original weld metal. My reason for requesting this info is so that the book(s) can be purchased, referenced and filed away with the weldor qualifications for future viewing *if* needed. CYA! It is what he wants and there is no changing his mind. To make him happy is to do as he request. This person would be very happy to hire someone other than myself to do this. In fact, I have attempted to find him someone else to do this. Since he is a person with very close ties to the college I have elected to help. No, this is not a threat to my job. He has been a very good employer of my students and he helps the welding department in a lot of different ways.

I need to put a code book in front of him that he can wave in front of any potential lawyers that says his weldors are qualified. Yeah, I know, that statement leaves a lot to be desired. It's just the simple thing to say here.
Thanks again for the replies.

By UCSB

Date 10-28-2003 20:31

I would go with D1.2- but then again- thats my own opinion

Roger

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-28-2003 20:38

Stever,
Which welds on these "Gold Wings" need attending to? Is there something critical to watch for that developes over time or is it something already amiss when you purchase it?
Curious,
John Wright

By stever

Date 10-28-2003 23:49

John Wright,
I'm not familiar with the reason for this recall. What I am able to understand is that the rather large repair welds are being made over the existing weld. This, of course, is after the required grinding which apparently does not remove all of the existing factory weld material. The fax that I presently have is not picture friendly. I'll need to see the original before I can give an honest interpretation of where it is located. At this moment I don't have the document in hand and memory fails me if it is stated where the repair is located. Hopefully Brett B or someone else can enlighten us to the cause or reason for the repair. If I find out why I will gladly post it here. Without knowing or seeing more I can only guess that this is a preventative repair to keep something from possibly happening. Again, I'm guessing.

By any chance do you own one of these machines?

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-29-2003 12:04

Stever,
No, I personally don't own one now, but I have friends that do. I was just curious about what may have happened to create this recall. Must be something Honda is very concerned about to go to this much trouble and expense. I have owned Honda CBR's and loved the performance. I have not had any bad experiences with that particular brand of motorcycle. I have owned several brands and like the Honda rocket bikes. Sold all of them once I had kids. Didn't want them to grow up without a Daddy, should something happen on one of those brisk rides through the mountains.
John Wright

By Brett B (*)

Date 10-29-2003 13:27

Honda had a bike come in that the lower frame cradle had broke open,
( this on the underneath the bike close to where the lower shock mount is). The rider had hit a 4 X 4 ( board ) and cause the bike to swerve but not crash. If you look at the Honda frame recall safety manual where they grind out the weld there is a inclusion. This is cast weld to a 6061 machined part. If you want a detailed picture I can PDF any of them and email them to you. I would say this is a single V-groove weld with a large cap pass ( or wash as Honda is calling it ) so I would use D1.2 to qualify the welder to. This is only the 2002 and 2003 GL1800A goldwings
that are affected, and only certain VIN numbers are being recalled.

Brett B.

By bmaas1

Date 10-29-2003 13:57

I would be interested in seeing these pictures.
My email is bmaas1@yahoo.com.

By stever

Date 10-29-2003 14:53

Thanks to all. I had already suggested D1.2 Structural Welding Code- Aluminum, but was wondering if something else would specifically cover this situation. I was also in the process of looking at D8.14 Specification for Automotive and Light Truck Components...

I appreciate the chance to question others and get opinions.

Great help!

Brett B. Thanks for the extra info about Honda. Now I know the *why* to the recall. Where did you get this?

By stever

Date 10-29-2003 15:00

Forgot to ask, Brett B you say the cast part is 6061. The verbal info that I received was that something, not defined, is 5356. Can you expand on the information that you have. Any suggestions as to the type filler wire that Honda requires?

The person wanting the qualifications may have all of this, but I will not see him until after November 3. Just trying to get ahead of the game.

Thanks again.

By Brett B (*)

Date 10-29-2003 15:22

It is a cast aluminum frame rail to a machined 6061 lower mount,
Honda requires 1/8" or 3/32" 5356 Lincoln filler rod, AC polarity,Pure Argon shielding, Continuous high frequency, wave balance on 5 and minimum of a 200 amp powersource.

You can go to your local Honda dealership and ask to see the "Repair kit" Honda sent out for the repair. It is very detailed and they are allowing 3 hour for repair time for the welder. I got this information from the local dealership the territory rep had a meeting with all of the delaers in our area going over this recall and the dealership gave me the repair manual.

They specify what type of carbide burr to use , stainless steel wheel cleaning between each pass, sequences of weld, how much overlap
on each "production weld".

Brett B.

By Fred H. Date 02-08-2005 22:59

I am a GL1800 owner and I have been involved with NHTSA for over two years in gathering data on failures that have occurred. I have several photos in the below listed galleries of both cracked welds and rewelded frames.

http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/originalcracks

http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/rewelds

http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/newcracks

The weld that is breaking is a lower crossmember that the rear shock and centerstand attach to. It causes the bike to drop to the pavement when it breaks out of the frame rails. Several bikes have broken at speed (70mph) and caused the back of the engine and transmission to drag the ground. One rider crossed the centerline and could not control the bike. Fortunately no traffic was in the oncoming lane, but had there been, he probably would have been killed. Fortunately so far no one has gotten hurt, but it is a very serious issue.

I am told that initially Honda used a MIG root weld. I am not a proffesional welder, but I am told that the root pass on an aluminum weld of this type should always be a TIG weld for proper penetration. After several passes of the MIG weld, they then did a TIG wash weld over some parts of the joint, mainly on the corners. Sometime in early 2002 they did away with the TIG wash or overlay weld to speed up production and save money. These are the bikes that were initially recalled. They claimed they brought back the TIG weld on frames that failed QC checks beginning in Sept 2002. But since that time even more bikes have cracked and broken that were outside the scope of the first recall.

So, just last week, Honda has now announced an even LARGER recall for virtually all bikes made from the first 2001 model to mid way through the 2004 production. They now say that on Sept 21, 2003 they changed the welding process in the factory to match the recall weld, which is a total TIG weld, so bikes made after that date are supposed to be unaffected.

The new recall has one group that gets ground out and rewelded regardless, while another group gets the weld inspected with some sort of depth gauge, and if it falls below limits, then is ground out and rewelded.

There have been some concerns by owners that Honda did not specify the qualifications of the welder for the repair. But I have personally inspected at least a dozen bikes that have been re-welded, and I have concluded that the ones that are re-welded locally look far better than anything that came out of the factory. The factory welds on many bikes look pretty poor to me. I am convinced the factory welders were more concerned with speed than quality and this is the root cause of the problem. I don’t know what the qualifications of the welders at the Honda plant in Marysville are, but I have some suspicions that they may not have been properly trained and/or qualified to weld on 6XXX and 7XXX series aluminum.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 02-08-2005 23:34

Don't know for sure

I bet the welders at the Honda factory are named

R2D2

C3PO

and

HAL 9000

By Fred H. Date 02-09-2005 00:12

No, the frame is HAND welded. I have verified this with NHTSA and folks have taken factory tours and spoken to the welders. Honda also claimed in the NHTSA breif that one of the causes of the problems was from a new welder they recently brought on the line. The entire frame is hand welded.

By Fred H. Date 02-09-2005 00:29

By the way, I would be very interested in hearing the thoughts of folks here on the pros and cons of TIG welding the root pass versus a MIG welded root pass on 6XXX or 7XXX series aluminum (I am uncertain exactly what the frame is, but I believe it is a variation on 7003 and was made by Kaiser but I could be wrong on that).

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 02-09-2005 03:09

Great gallery Fred.

Scary photos.

Makes for lots of questions. Tig and Mig can both produce highest quality welds on aluminum. However, process control for MIG must be more comprehensive in manufacturing, while with GTA skill requirements are higher.

Lots to consider here... Fixturing, actual production welding procedures, Mechanicals, Design. Time will tell if good welds start breaking down the line, just later.

The HUGE wash beads do not inspire confidence in the as manufactured or repaired condition. Routing out cracks and piling on even more filler doesn't sound like a real great solution.

I think that although there are obvious examples of poor quality welds, that the real problem is a poor joint. Design/material change is in Honda's future.

Honda has a big problem on its hands.

By Fred H. Date 02-09-2005 13:20

"I think that although there are obvious examples of poor quality welds, that the real problem is a poor joint. Design/material change is in Honda's future."

I agree. There are several problems with the mechanical design of the joint. First of all, in my opinion, this crossmember and joint should be made in such a way that it can never break free of the frame regardless of whether the weld fails or not. It appears to me that the joint is relying on the weld too much for its strength.

But I guess what really confuses me is why Honda used a MIG weld on the root pass and then a TIG weld to finish. Everyone I have spoken to says this is backwards and that the root pass should have been a TIG weld. Is there any advantage, other than speed of welding, that a MIG weld provides at the root?

By Fred H. Date 02-09-2005 13:39

Oh, and one more comment. To date, I have not heard of any failures from any of the bikes that have been rewelded (8,196 in the first recall). So it appears that the local welders are indeed doing a good job. This second round of recalls will affect around 34,000 more bikes covering three model years.

Yet from everything I can see and have been told, Honda still has not made any changes to the design of the joint or frame and are still building the same bike.

Here is a link to an article on the reweld process for the first recall that may shed some more light. I am told that there are some changes for this second round of recalled bikes, and the exact procedures have not yet been given out to the dealers.

http://www.wingworldmag.com/archives/january2004/magazine/article/safetyrecall.html

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 02-11-2005 06:19

Hey Fred !

The last link really raised alot of questions about Honda's welding repair procedures... What especially bothered me was how they described how the welds would be inspected!!!

The first question that comes to my mind is; How are the dealers going to accurately determine the extent of any potential cracks, porosity, LOF, changes in the desired mechanical properties, etc. in the defective welds found on each frame - if there is no mention of NDE except for a visual inspection????? Then, how are the Honda dealers going to determine via NDE if the repairs were done successfully (free of defects internally and on the surface throughout the welded areas in question and achieving the desired mechanical properties reqiured to tolerate the dynamic loads they would be subjected to again ) - by performing a visual inspection only????

Are any of the Honda authorized dealers approved to perform or subcontract the repairs have any formal training in NDE even if it's limited to VT??? I find myself cringing everytime I finish asking a question because, another one almost instantly pops up in my head regarding this debacle so, I think I'll stop here!!!

"Give me Harley Davidson or Give me DEATH"

Thanks for the update on this story Fred!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!