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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / 500# spool or 1000# drum?
- - By ziggy (**) Date 11-05-2003 21:14
Has anyone experienced problems with the 1000# drums of wire? For instance, losing 25#'s worth of wire at the bottom of the drum due to settling.
We use both the 500# spools (GMAW) and 1000# drums (FCAW). The spools tend to be maintenance free. The drums are not quite as smooth.
Just wondered if anyone else is experiencing this problem. Or if someone has written on the subject.
Thanks for any input.
ziggy
Parent - - By DGXL (***) Date 11-06-2003 01:19
ziggy:
1.) Have the drums been moved after being placed at the workstation.
2.) Have the drums been subjected to any type of shock, vibration, etc?
3.) Have you had problems with the same electrode and/or manufacturer in the past?

If you lose 25#'s or 2#'s of electrode, your sales or manufacturers' rep. should be doing what he/she can to help resolve the problem.
Parent - - By - Date 11-06-2003 14:07
how much do one of those 1000 pound drums cost?....i remember letting go of the wire one time and the whole roll came undone...anybody ever had that problem...i hope not with the drum :D
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-06-2003 14:17
OFW,
That usually only happens to a person one time. Let that happen with some Stainless FCAW wire and someone will make sure you don't let that happen again. That stuff is way too costly.
John Wright
Parent - - By - Date 11-06-2003 14:48
that's why i don't mig.Changing wire,tension problems,and all the other problems that go along with that!
Parent - - By - Date 11-06-2003 14:50
most of the time on the hobart,miller,and even sometimes on this board it's always usually a person having a problem with their mig welder(s).....

Thank You
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-06-2003 16:47
OFW,
Let's say you have 25 structural columns that have a flange thickness of 2"3/16, like I did this morning. The base plate is 4" thick and needs to be welded full pen to the bottom of these column shafts. How long is it gonna take you to OFW all of those columns with UT quality? My welders finished them up just a few minutes ago and I have already UT'd them and they all passed with no rejections. The outside Inspector is on his way to recheck them as I'm typing. I doubt you could put that much filler in that fast if you were welding with OFW. I know years ago, there were no FCAW machines with 60# coils and it all was done with the processes of that day. So I know it is possible, and I'm not questioning that, only trying to humbly show you that there are other applications where mig (GMAW/FCAW) is a good choice. I sure wouldn't want to try and weld any ga. material with our 3/32" diam. wire either. FCAW just isn't the process for that application. Try not to knock the process until you have given it a better try and understand what it is good for, it has it's usefulness for the right application, just like OFW does.
John Wright
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 11-06-2003 17:39
Well said John.
In general, every welding process has it's place, otherwise, no one would use them anymore. But when you have to produce a lot of big welds and do it fast, the manual processes just can't compete with GMAW and FCAW and big wire.
If we go back in time a step farther, I'm sure many people used to say that oxy-fuel and stick welding couldn't be trusted. That rivets were the way to go.
Someday our grandchildren will look back and come to the conclusion the we were all very primative, and wonder how we ever got anything done.

Chet Guilford
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 11-06-2003 19:22
John,

I guess it's my turn to get off the subject..... I thought I worked around some pretty fast UT guys so I'm curious, how long did it take for the UT exam of the 25 connections? On this type of a T-joint, many of my clients specify a lam scan of both the column and the base plate followed by a 60 deg. & 70 deg. scan from faces A & B, followed by a SB scan from the base plete (face c). Is this the same examination that you perform?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-06-2003 19:42
You forgot to ask about how hot it was while I was checking them. The couplant was just cool enough to not boil, if you were to ask. They didn't finish them all at once, I did get to check them as they were finishing them up and cooling off some. I didn't even cheat on the calibrations either, one for both transducers and both wedges before I started. The flanges were the only thing that was full pen, the webs were 7/16 fillets both sides. The outside Inspection is going over these right behind me, so far, I've not missed anything, at least that they caught:) I shouldn't boast just yet about being accurate, the job has many more columns to come. The outside Inspector may prove me wrong yet. He is checking all of the above too, right behind me. He has been checking one step further with the 45 degree.(fingers crossed)
John Wright
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 11-06-2003 20:22
I've seen UT inspections on this type of joint take around 15 minutes each, maybe longer if there are a number of indications to evaluate. On the other hand, I've seen reports charging the client 10 or 12 hours for jobs with a similar scope of work. So I was just curious. I was not trying to imply any shortcuts on your part.

Hope the third party UT confirms your test.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-06-2003 20:39
If I took 10 to 12 hours, my shop would be backed up and waiting on me. The outside Inspecter has to hussle as well or he starts to make an impact on whether or not the customer gets thier material on time. It's not uncommon to see 50 to 75 columns like that a week. Not all the jobs that go through here are loaded with full pen. The earlier sequences of this job had 2" stiffeners welded full pen to the flanges along with the base plates. Yes, I get tired of having to run this hard.
John Wright
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-07-2003 02:22
Thankfully all of the columns passed his scutiny also. You are correct when you say it can be done alot quicker when you don't have indications jumping off the screen. You'll definitely slow me down should I see indications around the rat hole. That seems to be the place things hide and get lost in the geometry. A nice smooth rat hole will UT alot easier than one that wasn't prepared well. When you have alot of columns like that it really slows you up if you find something and have to get the welder to dig it out and fill it back up. Then you have to let it cool enough to get the couplant to stay on there long enough to recheck the area again to make sure the welder got it all out or didn't put something back in. Good welders make my job UTing look easy. The welders tell me all the time that it looks easy, just squirt that mess on the flange and run that thingy over next to the weld a few times and you're done, nothing to it. Yeah right!:)
John Wright
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 11-07-2003 05:22
John,

Thanks for giving such an honest response. Good welders make everybodys job easier don't they? I am missing your point about the rat hole and geometry. Since it is in the web, how does the preparation of the hole come into play if you are scanning from both faces of each flange? Don't you just skew the transducer to cover the weld area that runs through the hole?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-07-2003 11:00
If you are not careful you'll mis-interpet some of the scatter that makes it's way back to the transducer. These false alarms will slow you down and make you investigate closer. The edges of the rat hole will dance off the screen giving you more to look at and then you'll need to take a slower more cautious look to weed out or discipher those signals. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, don't you? Funny how I can ask the welder to grind them up a little and smooth them out with a hole grinder and they just disappear off the scope, I guess they still call it a scope, don't they?(screen). The USN 50 we have here at work is a good little machine though, it's easy to set up and use. Calibrations are a breeze with all those data sets to plug away and recall when you need them. I honestly don't zero out the machine each time I calibrate. Just recall the data set for say, the 70 SW or 60 SW, and check it against the ref block. The USN 50 seems to never move, always dead on regardless of the power source, or low or full batteries. I bought a USN 52 for myself off ebay and thought maybe I would use it on the side for some extra change, but then we started all these long hours and I could hardly keep up here in the shop, so I ended up selling it to an inspection outfit in South Carolina.
Gotta get back out there, more columns will be ready in a little while.
John Wright
Parent - By thirdeye (***) Date 11-07-2003 15:31
Now I got it! I guess I was hearing you but not listening. After a quick cross section sketch I see what you mean. Thanks for your patience.

Too bad those pesky backing bar indications can't go away with a little grinding.
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 11-06-2003 17:19
DGXL:
In answer to your questions:
1. Once they are set at the station we do not move them. I am inclined to believe, however, that some of the welders "adjust" them.
2. As to shock, vibration, etc. I can only say that shipping may cause settling. I think of a cereal box...when you open it it appears 3/4 to 1/2 full. Of course the consistency is different but the forces are the same.
3. Our supplier is helping on this. They have replaced a drum or two in the past.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-06-2003 17:27
ziggy,
I apologize for getting off your question and onto something else completely. My mind wanders just as bad as my fingers on the keyboard.
John Wright
Parent - By - Date 11-06-2003 17:36
jw

cool...who do you work for?...that's interesting.....i not only gas weld but stick and tig as well...I think I am very competent in sma welding and have much long lived experience.Been doing it for over 25 years.Been to many classes and seminars and try to keep up daily with new technology and updates with many manufacturers machines.I yet do not need a certification for the type of work I do because just because you go out and pass a test on a coupon doesn't meet up to years of experience.For your information I am a self employed weldor and not only that a hobbiest at my own time off.

Thanks
Parent - - By DGXL (***) Date 11-06-2003 17:32
Ziggy:
1.) I would make sure your welders are instructed (verbally and in writing) not to tamper with the way the wire is wound on the drum.
[This is usually the source of most problems with bulk electrode/filler metals.]

2.) If you are recieving drums with probelms caused by shipping and/or handling, then I would contact your rep. for a replacement.
[This would apply as long as your welding personnel are handling the drums properly before placing them into production.]

3.) Is your supplier a local gig or one of the big dogs like Airgas or Praxair?
[If they want to keep your bulk-electrode business, they should be bending over backwards to keep you satisfied with the products they sell.]

I have few clients who use drums, they don't have any problems with their electrodes. These are set up for high production semiautomatic and a couple of robotic applications. Problems are usually obvious and human error is typically the source.

Let the forum know how things work out.

Good Luck.
Parent - By - Date 11-06-2003 17:41
Sorry to get off the subject as well but many world war II vintage plane's fuselages and engine brackets have been gas welded and I yet would like to see an arc machine such as a stick welder work on lighter material and not warp and burn through the 4130! Flux Core is an impressive process but does not yet seem to interest me that well just yet.I tried it and have owned a flux core machine and was totally dissatisfied with it.No offense to you guys that love metal inert gas and flux core.

Now I am going to break off this thread.
Parent - By ziggy (**) Date 11-06-2003 19:42
DGXL:
Thanks for the feedback. I will update the forum as well.
ziggy
Parent - - By kam (**) Date 11-07-2003 14:50
I run into this problem on a daily basis. We use thosands of pounds of wire every month. But....in my opinion.....the problem is really not a problem at all....its just mindset. Every day I find barrels of wire which are marked "JUNK" in our wire staging area. These barrels usually contain 10 to 20 pounds of wire in the bottom. I look over the wire and see nothing wrong with it....no tangles at all. For some reason a few of our welders think that once you get to the bottom of the barrel the wire is no good. All I do is move the barrel out to another operation, hook it up and run out the rest of the wire.....no problems. If you think its bad then is going to be bad.....as they say preseption is reality. On the times where the wire actually was bad it was due to someone hitting the barrel with a folk lift or something like that.

kam
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 11-07-2003 16:35
i have to agree on your comment about the "mindset." there is one welder here that has such a "mindset" with the drums. he imagines that the wire is tangled, or the wire is ruining his whip, or the drum is contaminated, and the list goes on. maintenance has complained to me about how often they change his whip. i instructed maintenance that the next time they change the whip, replace it with his old one....see if he notices....
he gets production out with good quality...but we are trying to help him change that "mindset" on the drums....he is the only welder that has the problems...
in any case, it makes for never a dull day...
thanks again kam for your comments
ziggy
Parent - By peter vacco (*) Date 11-16-2003 01:43
just a very wuick note... but, if he has the bad lick of having an H55S(1/8"diffuser) installed on a tweco gun, where he really wnats and H55(3/32" dissuser), the holes in the liner and the tip won't line up and he will NEVER EVER EVER have good feeding.
cheers
Parent - - By dknightd Date 11-08-2003 16:52
I don't understand the problem. If you lose 25# out of 1000 what is the big deal? This is flux core wire, if I had 1000# sitting on me I might get flattened as well. Your weldors apparently turn out good welds. You should be happy. Trust their judgement. If they determin the last 25# is bad let them. The relative cost is minimal. You want your weldors to turn out good joints. You don't want them claiming weld problems are due to poor materials. Some of this might be due to the weldor not wanting to bother rerigging to deal with bottom of the barrel wire. I'd put that in the loss column. It is cheaper to toss a little material and supplies than it is to reweld. It could be a delivery problem, or a local problem, but in my mind I'd just consider a 1000# barrel as being 950# of usable material and be happy if we got more. Wire is cheaper than good weldors. If your guys are doing good work, smile and be happy.
Parent - By - Date 11-09-2003 00:30
Proper dictionary terms.Welder:as in machine,Weldor:as in person using welding machine.I like those terms better.Thanks
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 11-09-2003 06:15
I'm seeing both sides here. The operator, probably under some time constraint, doesn't want to spend the time to reload the machine when only a couple of percent of the drum remain. Management on the other hand sees, if this wire is anything but mild steel, perhaps a couple of hundred bucks worth of wire getting thrown away. Perhaps you could build something to wind the remainder onto 45# spools if you ever use them.
Bill
Parent - - By DGXL (***) Date 11-09-2003 21:49
2 comments here:

1.) If you went to the store for a quart of milk and you only got 3/4 of a quart, I'm sure you would mind.

If you owned a weld shop and your consumables only yielded 90% of what they should, you would be concerned. That is $ out of your pocket and has nothing to do with the skill levels of the welders.

2.) Re-wind drum-electrode onto another format? Why don't you try it first and let the foum know how well it feeds if at all.

Please look up cast, helix, lay, rise, etc...
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 11-10-2003 04:39
1- Equating it to a quart of milk- 25/1000 is 1.6 tablespoons, less than most people put in a cup of coffee, but I did speak to the size of the loss as a management issue.
2- I do know of a case where a 500# spool was rewound onto smaller spools and it worked fine. That was hard wire though and this tubular wire might not work as well. Pulling it from a drum would put a twist in the wire which might be a problem, I've not tried it. Still, if it was mine and I thought it was worth salvaging, I would try it.

I cannot find definitions for these words in this context but would be interested to see them.

A question which has not been discussed here is is this enough wire to complete the next weld. If not then the operator may have chosen the least costly option for the company.
Bill
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / 500# spool or 1000# drum?

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