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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / ridiculous fillet weld?
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-13-2003 12:06
I have a unique situation that I have not encountered before. I have a 1/4" thick plate x 4" x 5" laying over at 30 degrees and is welded to side of a large rectangular tube. The drawing is calling for a 5/16" fillet on the inside and a 9/16" fillet on the outside angle of this 1/4" plate. I finally achieved the 9/16" fillet after lots of work. Having to let it cool after each pass until finally we had enough weld metal built up to achieve the 9/16" fillet.

I'm not a train driver(engineer) so maybe I think this is ridiculous, but is this really how you develope a 1/4" plate with fillets? Is the Z-loss that great on a 1/4" plate? w/ 3/32" FCAW-G

Today I have the same type of thing but the 1/4" plates are 90 degrees to the tube, and the drawing calls for a TC-U4b. I don't think I'm going to waste time beveling the plate to a 45. I'm going to put a couple good passes on one side and backgouge the second side back to the good weldmetal and fill it back up. I wonder sometimes if the detailer is looking out for us or if they are trying to work us to death on purpose.
John Wright
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 11-13-2003 22:23
John, the 9/16" fillet seems excessive. I would think leaving your plate square-cut and filling in the groove with a fillet backing weld on the acute side would have been sufficient.

As far as the detailers go, I wish they would get a copy of AWS A2.4 and actually READ it!

My favorite is the square-butt groove used as a seal weld on the outside flanges of a 90 degree channel iron joint. They call off a fillet on the inside profile and outside of the web and that's no problem. But the square-butt has no depth of penetration, so it's full pen, except that the joint is prohibited because it's too thick for the configuration. Whew! that's a mouthful there!
Anyway, the detailers use the symbols incorrectly and then treat us like dummies because we can't read minds. When I point out that all welding symbols are supposed to be per A2.4, I get "Well the CAD program won't do it and A2.4 is wrong anyway!"

I just wish (this is a hint for any detailers reading this) that if they don't know, ask. Don't buffalo through it! And if they are not sure what groove configuration to use, just do an arrow, a reference line, and a tail with no weld symbol. Put the letters "CJP" or "PJP" in the tail. That way the fabricator can submit whatever option works best. I realize detailers usually put whatever they see on the contract drawings onto the shop drawings, but it would be really nice if they knew what the symbols REALLY mean.
I'll shut up now and go away before I start thinking this did any good.

Chet Guilford
Parent - - By vb (*) Date 11-13-2003 23:13
Hi Chet!

Your request has been granted!!

I am an Engineering Technologist, specialized in machine design, and got a job which I write contracts for building vehicles and equipment. My work "volunteered / told" me to take a welding inspector course through CWB (Canadian Welding Bureau).

My first impression was "what do I need this course for?" I'm not even involved with using welding symbols on my drawings. (Please dont think evil thoughts... it gets better)!!

Anyways, I am partially through my course now - which has covered welding symbols and standards set by A2.4 and W59, and I have had a complete change of heart. Even though I doubt I will use welding symbols in this job, this course has had me gain a huge respect for the guys on the floor doing the work, and I have a better understanding when designing products for the guys to build. Going through this course, I feel that welding and welding designing should be mandatory in all engineering courses.

This course has given me more knowledge on this topic, and after completion, I intend to take some welding courses for an even better understanding.

I have no idea why most detailers are afraid of the welders. In my experience, they have offered the most help - and I believe they are the only ones who can truely understand the art of welding.

Your story has made me laugh - and definitely made me feel better about some of the screwups I have created in this young carreer!!

Cheers,
Vicki
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 11-17-2003 20:45
Hi Vicki,
I wasn't ignoring you, I haven't been able to reply 'til now. It sounds like you are on a good track and should do well.

As for detailers being afraid of welders, I think you can chalk that up to pride (and maybe a little fear?). Welders are notorious for "telling it like it is" and combined with the usual colorful language.....well, some people are more sensitive than others. But you hit the nail on the head. The designers and detailers need to remember that the drawings are for the people on the production floor. If the info is confusing the costs go up.

But to be fair to detailers, we all need to remember that it doesn't take much of a keystroke error to make big mistakes. By the time a person has looked all day at the lines and figures, it isn't easy to spot mistakes. And since the detailer is well "upstream" in the production process, they carry a huge responsibility. It doesn't have a prayer of being right if the print is wrong.
(How's that for "schmoosing"?)

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed my post.

John,
I can't read your post from this screen, so I don't remember all you said.
I did want to say that I saw an article such as you described in the March/April 2000 issue of The American Welder, titled "Blueprint Bloopers: Common Mistakes with Welding Symbols". I keep my copy of that with my A2.4. That article would be a good one for AWS to do a reprint on.

Chet Guilford
Parent - By vb (*) Date 11-19-2003 04:39
Hi Chet!

The shmoozing was a nice touch!!

As for the course, it seems to be going alright. There is alot to learn, coming from an unexperienced one as myself.... but with lots of studying... I think I will do ok!

I think the largest benefit I will gain from this course, is being able to spend more time with welders (as most of the people taking this course have tickets).

As for higher responsibility.... my honest opinion... that's probably why engineers get paid more. Should leave it at that, and when the job is done, and the day is over... everyone (including the welders) should be able to look at their work, and be proud of the learning and effort put into it.

(If this is too sappy for you, blame it on the estrogen)!!!

Have a good one!!
Vicki,
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-14-2003 10:50
Chet & Vicki,
Did you see that artical a while back (in the Journal, I think) about all those mis-used weld symbols? I laughed so hard and just had to take a copy of that to our detailing department. See, I can get away without hurting too many feelings over there, as several of my 19 years here at the company were spent detailing. The importance of knowing the symbols sank in a little, I think. The symbol I feel they have the toughest time with is a partial pen. Depth of prep and weld size either gets left off making it a full pen or depth of bevel is more than the thickness of the plate or something along those lines. I don't claim to be an expert in anything, but occasionally I get to show them the correct symbol out of A2.4 for what they are trying to convey. Isn't that what books are for? So, you don't have to memorize all that info and clutter up your hard drive.
John Wright
Parent - - By bmaas1 (***) Date 11-16-2003 01:54
How about a skewed T-joint. Isn't that a dandy.


Brian Maas
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-16-2003 10:59
Hi Brian,
Yep, that what I have. I just find it hard to believe that the z-loss is that great on a 1/4" plate laying over @ 30 degrees. We left the plate square on the edge, so it has a groove when you lay it over to 30 degrees. Then that large FCAW wire burns in deep, so I just can't believe that there is any z-loss to even consider in this case. Maybe I'm over reacting, but if the plate was thicker, I guess I would be more concerned over the z-loss in that joint. The table in D1.1 gives a z-loss dimn of 1/4" to be added back to the size of the fillet, which makes a 5/16 fillet go to a 9/16 fillet on that side of the plate. So the detailer was correct to use that figure I guess.
John Wright
Parent - - By maclaskey Date 11-18-2003 15:54
If you have an 1.50" dia tubeing welded to another 1.50" tubeing @ 30 deg( tube is milled to fit profile of lower tube), is this a skewed fillet weld "all the way around". If so, is it ok to use the fillet symbol for the entire joint?
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-19-2003 18:15
Your question hasn't been addressed so i'll take a stab at it. I'm not all that familiar with pipe welding or the drawings that they may see regarding the way a branch is welded into a main at 30 degrees. There are a few things that might play into your fillet all around on that joint. There will be a z-loss dimn to take in account for on the heel zone of the joint. I think it's basically divided up as a toe zone, being the area with the outside larger angle at 150 degrees to the main and then the side zones which are at 90 degrees to the main, near side and far side of the joint, then the heel zone which is the 30 degree inside angle. I've not seen a pipefitter's drawing, so I'm only guessing that it's OK to call for a fillet all around at that joint. Hopefully if I'm wrong someone will speak up and say so. Then we'll both know the correct way it should be shown.
John Wright
Parent - - By MBlaha (***) Date 11-19-2003 17:10
What happened to the Welding Journal?
I remember that article well. In fact, I sent a copy to the drafting dept. and they actually called me back that they appreciated seeing it.

Mike
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-19-2003 21:13
Mike,
Chet was correct, it was the March/April edition of the American Welder, not the journal as I originally thought. I found my copy of it stashed away and re-read it today. That publication must have been canned, or either it don't come in the mail with the Welding Journal and Inspection Trends anymore.
Wonder what the story is there? Anybody have a clue?
John Wright
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / ridiculous fillet weld?

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