Don't know if it's still active or not but the Plumbers & Pipefitters used to have Inspectors under their program, at least in Pasco, Washington (Local 598). Personally, having been a member of that particular union, it left a very bad taste in my mouth about being union. A very long story as to the reasoning and one that I don't care to repeat in these boards.
KAJUN:
There is a union for inspectors here in L.A., but the union does not "back you up" if you run into technical or conflict problems with contractors. This union is the Operating Engineers (crane operators). I have a number of friends in the union. It provides more in the way of benefits and insurance than a back-up.
If you feel you are being used as part of a "dog and pony show", then I would would be a little more selective about choosing clients or employers who are actually concerend about quality. We all wear the D&P jacket at some point in our inspection careers. The best person to look out for Kajun is Kajun.
I was a member of Pipefitters 300. It was a farce- no backup, little insurance or anything. It was a branch off of 598 and tried to stand alone before it went tits up. Don't know what they are doing now. They tried to get me to sign back up a few years ago.
Roger
The Operating Engineers Local 2 in St. Louis represents NDT professionals. I'm not sure if they include other types of inspectors. All of the union members I work around (ironworkers, boilermakers, pipeliners etc.) agree the training and the group insurance are very valuable.
I may be wrong, but I think the Boilermakers Hall in Phoenix Ariz. has something for the inspectors.I don't have any infomation, such as phone numbers. I will try to find out and post it later
L.L.
I called Phx and haven't really received any valid information from them yet.
I am currently a member of Pipefitters Local 290(Portland, OR) and received my CWI in April 2003. Put on a so called "Inspectors list", thinking I would get work fairly soon, never a call. I recently decided to check the non-union sector and have 2 job offers (permanent, they say), within 2 weeks of submitting my resume'. I have been a union member since 1991 and for me also, it has left a bad taste in my mouth!
At one time I performed inspections in So. Cal and the Operating Engineers were the controlling union for the inspectors. They kept trying to get me to join, but when I asked what they would do for me it was not support me or help me find a job or anything I couldn't do for myself. All they wanted was to collect my dues and control where I worked. So needless to say I didn't join. So they would cause problems for me when ever they would find out what job I was on, if it was a big union job. Besides inspectors are technically part of management so they have no rights to organize us. I found out the best support was a good client, a good supporting engineer on the project, and a good building department. I have used them all at one time or another to put a contractor or customer in their place. I had good advice from a smart inspector friend that said "you don't need clients that don't pay well or argue over your fees, and isn't truely interested in quality". I stuck by that and had very few issues after that. And I always had work and was paid well and on time. I set up the rules up front when talking to my client and the contractor, it helps for them to know the rules just like kids need to know the rules.
An inspector union of some type is sorely needed.
There is very little, if any, backing us up on our decisions.
I have lost work because I stuck to the code requirements, but I won't jeopardize my integrity-period.
As we all know, there are inspectors who will.
I am at a point that missing a few days does not concern all that much.
I know there are many inspectors out there that do not have that luxury.
Let's do it!!
Good Luck
brande
I don't disagree about an inspector's union, only it needs to be by the inspectors not someone else's union. There is no support when you're controlled by someone else's union. In fact all the union's I've been involved in seem to only support and protect the lazy ones.
As I said before the best support is a good client/owner serious about quality, a good strong building department, and/or a good engineer. You are really representing and supporting their interests anyhow, and you can tactfully remind them of that. After all you are only trying to insure they are getting what they are paying for, or what they designed, or what the code requires for the building dept. I have placed calls to all of the above on certain occasions, and when I approached them as supporting them then they almost always suppoprted me. If they didn't I didn't work with them anymore, and that was about my integrity.
Bill
Since this is all about opinions, I will just add that I personally believe there was once a time and a reason for Unions in this country. Now days, I think Unions have caused their own demise (through protecting the lazy employee as one other pointed out and even worse still, trying to gain Union control in areas they are both unwanted and unnecessary)
After working most of my career "outside" the area of Union "protection" I personally feel no need to ever go back... Many countries outside of the USA have work contracts which are legally enforced (in BOTH directions) and this seems to work well.
Since its just opinions. You should pay more attention to what goes on around the world.
You would have it that every one fit your discription of an idea employee, thats reason enough for a union all buy its self.
Some time in your life read the pre amble to the constitution of the AFL/CIO (its available on line).
You are voice of 1 and you say "unwanted & unnecessary".
I am curious, how do you define "lazy ones"? Are you comparing them to your self? Are you really that good?
Ron; my posting was not an attack on unions as you seem to have taken it but I will explain the "unwanted and unnecessary" bit to you;
while I was a member of the Pipefitters union back in the 1980's a number of us used to ride the bus out to site ~ it was nice; cut down on traffic and allowed us to arrive at work comfortable and relaxed. All fine and good until the local members decided the bus drivers (and all maintenance people who worked on the busses) MUST be employed by the local union! A group (actually a mob) of local union members awaited the busses one day and threw hot coffee, egged and verbally abused anyone who had guts enough to get off. Nuff said on that issue; I've never worked union again since, and will not.
Now then, as to the "lazy" ones being protected, while I wasn't the one who originally made that comment, I do agree with it. Yes, there are some very, very hard workers who are union members and these workers will not take offense when I say there are a few damned lazy union workers too. The difference is a non-union worker who is just plain lazy is out the door while the union worker who is just as lazy is protected by seniority etc.
Again I say this is NOT an attack on all unions and all union members, I have been a member of several unions in my past. Many are good and provide educational opportunities for their members but there are just as many that I think a lot of people would prefer not to associate with, given the opportunity.
I really don't want this to be a pissing contest but there's my personal background with regard to my comments.
Some time in my life I did read the Union Constitution. Below are some non opinion quotations and statistics.
....We will assemble a broad progressive coalition for social and economic justice. We will create a political force within the labor movement that will speak forcefully and persuasively on the public issues that affect our lives.....
---Preamble to AFL-CIO Constitution
Another time I read this.
....we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all" (105)....
---Communist Manifesto
Generally, AFL-CIO union dues payers can expect less than 25 percent of their dues dollars to be invested in collective bargaining, the bulk of the remainder goes to "Grand Lodges" or "National" headquarters to be spent on political (read democrat) campaigns, and while not reported as "political" some $40 million has been spent on partisan "in-kind" activities such as door-to-door canvasses and get-out-the-vote drives.
With nearly 40% of unionized voters regularly voting Republican, that adds up to some 4 million working Americans forced to contribute to the campaigns of Democrat candidates they don’t support. Not to mention Planned parenthood contributions and other such hot button spendings.
I have been the beneficiary of collective bargaining and have also seen collective bargaining bring the pay of unskilled labor so high that the company declared bankrupsy.
When in a closed shop I think of the Union as "rendering unto Cesar,"
For me it boils down to this; (opinion) No job is garunteed. Skills and work ethic are a more formidible job protection than the union.
I understand I'm only one voice, but my union dues sure don't go where I would like them too. The freedom to say something about that only extends to my local... the national will spend my money as they see fit... just like taxes eh?
Anti union? Nope, Just see it warts and all. There is a place for unions, but just like the capitalists they hate, unions will die if they don't exercise wisdom and make the corrections at the top.
Thanks to,
NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR LABOR RELATIONS RESEARCH http://www.nilrr.org/duesbase.htm for providing facts.
Lawrence,
I've never been very politically inclined whether work related or otherwise. Association with a party/group seemed to always lead to a discovery about their views I wish I hadn't learned. I am currently a boilermaker apprentice. I am very proud of the craft. The organization as a whole is still somewhat of a mystery.
My hourly payrate has increased considerably since my "pre-union" days. My annual payrate has decreased due tolack of work.
I greatly respect some of my boilermaker brothers both for the skills they possess and their work ethic.
Some that read this may not like what I have to say about being in the union.
During my experince as a non-union boilermaker/pipefitter/millwright/welder
1) I was allowed to work at my own pace without the fear of being "runoff" by my employer.
2) I was placed in positions of authority and responsibilty based on my knowledge work ethic, and experience.
3) If there was a job going on in the country, I was a phone call away and worked when I wanted. I usually made the phone call.
4) If the work conditions were unsafe , I had legal recourse in which I could get them corrected however I could lose my job in the mean time with no one to help me with getting the facts straightened out.
5) If I performed poorly at work or crossed the wrong person, I was laid off early. In every job I can remember I was there till the trailers were loaded except for those times I requested a layoff or was part of #4 above.
6) I often worked with or around people that had NO Idea how to do very basic tasks. These people were usually helpers and often times related to someone on the job. Some of these had NO ideas about safety practices, basic tools, or construction methods.
7) I worked with a great many highly skilled welders, mechanics, and fittter. Usually the welders would only weld and would stand around doing little to nothing while the fitter or mechanic prepped, rigged, fit etc. ALOT of "Golden Arm Syndrome".
As a Union boilermaker
1) I have been warned by coworkers that I should slow down, stop for the rest of the day , or not do more than the "quota" . These were usually journeyman that were in grade school when I made my 1st RT'd weld in a nuclear power plant.
2) When working in some situations I was placed in "helper" situations with journeyman with seemingly little ability to utilize the basic skills so described in detail in the apprentice training manuals. At other times I was left to work alone without a journeyman.
3) I waited on numerous occasions to get called for a job. On three occasions I went to the office to see the "List". I was not on it. This was due to a secretarial problem.
4) If an unsafe condition existed at work I could bring it up with absolutely no fear of being fired.
5) I was laid off in varying order. Often times the steward would goaround asking certain people when they wanted laid off and if they wanted togo to another job.
6) Everyone I ever encountered on the job had a good awareness of safety practices and a general understanding of the tools and terminology of the trade. Very few "deer in the headlights" looks when sent for a tool.
7) The craftsmen on the job performed all of the tasks required to get thejob done with the exception of this who did not have welding certifications. The "old hand's" that I met that welded were a VAST wealth of knowledge and skill. Some used it on the job. Some didn't. But it was there !
I will probably not be able to complete my apprenticeship as I am working locally with a company that treats me REALLY well and will stay with them.
I also have 20+ years of work habits that seem to rub many of my union brothers the wrong way and seem to be accused of"Working them out of a job" on nearly every project I have worked on.
I HIGHLY recommend the union as a place to get training and work experience. I think all of the good non-union jobs today are the result of organized labor. I also think there is a reason the unions don't have as much work where I live. Either its not attractive to employers or they have not been politically motivated to use union labor.
Our skilled labor is something that is needed in the country. Being organized helps control the market a little. Why does a doctor make so much a year, because he can. How about an engineer!.
I think organized labor is a good concept that has been SEVERLY abused.
The moral and political issues that are supported by the union are not even close to mine. Sometimes we are a little blinded by the almighty $.
I watched this for awhile. Went to the Dr today and got a 1-1/2" screw taken out of my ankle. Cost in Excess of $3000.00 . Do you think I could get in as screw gun operator for maybe $200.00 a shot ?
Thanks for your time, I think the medication is wearing off!
Have a good day. Don't let any negotiated contract with others modify your core values.
PS: The screw removal was paid for by health insurance I obtained as a boilermaker. In all my years of field construction work, I have never been insured.
Gerald,
It's really thought provoking, the notion that you humbly refer to yourself as an apprentice. I know better.
I am an apprentice.
I was actually indentured in as an apprentice 2 years ago. For me to become a journeyman I still have to take 2 more classes. I hope they will let me stay active even though I have a full time job that is not with the boilermakers. The two classes I have taken were very good. Much of the information was already learned but it took years to gain some of it.
Have a nice day
Gerald Austin
Gerald, I happen to agree with Lawrence..... it is humbling to hear you refer to yourself as an apprentice; by the way, I began my career as a boilermaker apprentice back in 1973. I have nothing but fond memories and great respect for the boilermakers union... I learned an awful lot there but, as you pointed out, they too have their population of slag which we seem to find in all levels, union or non-union.
RonG
You haven't worked in the Great State of Arizona yet, a right to work state. Here if you don't have a union or contract to back you up your employer can fire you with no reason and you are just S.O.L no recourse what so ever. Unions are your only protection against someone who is your boss and dosn't like the way you work, or personal conflicts with the boss.
Lindasue
Just to clarify a bit, I do realize that some inspection situations can get very uncomfortable due to clients not backing the inspector, or the "inspectees" not liking the findings.
But, presuming that the inspector is trained and knowledgeable in his/her field, it helps to think of inspection as simply making the necessary examinations and presenting the findings. No one has to agree with the inspector, nor back them up. The client can even choose to ignore the reports if they choose to. Another inspector could be called in. It does bruise the ego when that happens but at that point, it doesn't matter anymore. (Just keep your records and notes.)
It should also be remembered that a union cannot force the client to back an inspector if they disagree. If they tried to, it could make the industry decide they don't need so much inspection.
When I refer to supporting the inspector, I don't mean acceptance of all their findings. After all the inspectors job is to examine and report not accept or reject (unless they have been given that authority), that is up to the powers of athority over the issue in question.
Anyone who has done inspection for any length of time knows that no one agrees with all your findings all the time.
But it's nice to feel your services are wanted and your findings are improtant, regardless of wether anyone agrees or not.
I guess it all boils down to your definition of support and what conditions you are comfortable with.
As they say, "to each his own".
Bill
Actually, BF, I wasn't responding to your post. Or anyone else directly. I just saw "support of inspectors" being discussed, and some people took it to mean that a client must support the inspector's decisions. It just seemed to be sliding away a bit from what the normal responsibilities are.
With that, I think I'll back away from the keyboard on this one. It's too easy to contribute to misunderstandings.
Chet
No problem Chet, I agree with your comments and they made me think I needed to explain my view a little better, that's all.
Bill
Well said, as usual Chet! We all must remember too nobody every likes being told their work or project is unacceptable for any reason. Often our best tool as an Inspector is how we present or communicate our findings.
I am willing to help anyone that is trying to build an Inspectors Union. I agree that if we are to be correctly repersented we need to be united.
I also think that AWS certification should be mandatory, as to not promote the unskilled or nonwelder. I personally beleive an Inspector can not know how to inspect a weld correctly without understanding,(under to hood experience). just how that weld came together.
If you want to walk the walk I am more then willing to walk with you brother.
Don't wish someone else will do it for you, lets do it!!!!!
Lindasue
OK. I have watched this thread with some minor interest. For whatever it is worth, I have not a clue what a union could possibly do to improve my inspector experience. I have worked as a third party inspector the majority of my 19 year NDE/CWI career, but have never felt I needed union representation. My personal experience (and much of what I have heard also) is a complete disdain for unions. Now before anyone bruises their knee jerking around under their desk, I understand there are a few instances where unions still have a truly beneficial place in the workforce (such as where apprenticeship programs are in place). I simply said that in MY experience, in EVERY situation I have been experienced with (27 year since I left school), the union was a drag on the company, sometimes even to the point of closing the facility. THAT was beneficial to those union workers! In my opinion, there are some good features to having union representation, but I feel more often than not, there is a bigger downside than upside, espescially for the company that owns the job that the union worker wants to fill.
Secondly, and the point where I bruised my own knee, is when I read that Lindasue believes "an Inspector can not know how to inspect a weld correctly without understanding, (under the hood experience), just how that weld came together." HUH??? My hand eye coordination is poor. I have said it before, I and my whole family would be considerably slimmer if they had to depend on my ability to weld. I can't weld! But then again, neither can some "WELDERS" for which I have had the distinct privilege to observe their doo droppings!!! Well excuse me for my incredulity, but I have a lot of training and experience looking at welds from the inside and outside as well as putting on a hood and watching someone else deposit the weld metal (maybe that qualifies me). I have a better understanding of what is going on in a weld puddle than many of those same doo drop "welders". And I have acceptance criteria to guide me as to whether it acceptable by industry standards. I have a weakness in my resume (that I feel is more than made up for in other strengths), but I still know whether a chocolate cake is good, even if I can't bake it!
Sorry for venting; I know Lindasue just has an opinion and everyone is entitled their opinions. I simply don't agree.
I guess I can see both points on this side of the discussion; having began my career from the starting point of a journey-level welder I believe it gave me a better understanding of what problems the welder was facing when he/she made the joint. The downside of that point is that sometimes when I was a fledgling inspector knowing those obstacles the welder faced helped sway my decision, this I now realize is NOT a good thing!
Forum
