Student here - Certification questions..

Date 11-29-2003 15:14

What are you calling a weave? It is possible to move the electrode side to side (marginaly) and still lay down a stringer bead.

By Mathius (**)

Date 11-30-2003 07:01

Basically a stringer as I have been taught it is a single pass weld that is basically the same size as you would get if you were to simply drag a line. This isn't a book definition, just my visual definition as it was taught to me.

For a weave, we were taught to turn the heat up, and basically create a big hot puddle and move it from side to side to cover the whole area.

The side to side motion doesn't necessarily dictate it as a weave to me, but the size of the puddle and the amount of area covered. Each different rod was taught to me using a different technique. Using the 6010 rod, we used a circular motion, then cut a path ahead, and then came back pushing the puddle back into a circular motion. In this way, we cut a path ahead, ensuring good penetration. With a 7018 rod, we basically ran a circular motion the whole length of the bead. 7018 rod runs a lot easier than 6010 and tends to look better.

On my arc welding certification, my instructor in beginning taught me to run a 6010 root of two stringers, and then a stringer over those to make sure I had maximum penetration. The rest of the test was run with 7018 rod and he had me fill that up with stringers.

He didn't recommend running weaves on the certification due to the posibility of slag inclusions. He did however teach the weave using only 7018 rod, but the concept remains the same with other rods or welders at least the way I understand it in my mind.

Mathius

By RonG

Date 11-30-2003 23:23

A stringer is hard to find the definition of, but most generaly accepted as 2 1/2 times the size of your electrode. I swear I have actually read that in sect IX somewhere but I can never find it again.

A weave could be more aptly discribed as a series of continuous stringer beads perpendicular to the joint.

What you discribed I have always heard refered to as a wash (flat only) and is not recommended for qualification test. Generaly used in maintainence type welding or a very bad fit up.

Maximum penetraition? There are limits to penetraition requirments as well as reinforcement.

You did say 3G and I am assuming up hand.

My thoughts on the matter is after you have put in a root stringer (with controled penetration) then a hot pass is to fill it out with a weave that gives me the correct width and crown. If you lay it in correctly there is very little chance of slag inclusion.

But its your coupon and you weld how you feel you can deliver the best results.

By MBSims

Date 11-29-2003 18:30

Mathius,

First, let's make sure you know what "3G' stands for because your use of the term "3G arc welding flat position" is conflicting. 3G is a vertical position groove weld, while a flat position groove weld would be 1G. 2G is horizontal position groove weld and 4G is overhead position groove weld.

As for stringers vs. a 2 pass weld on a 3/8" 3G plate test, you need to use what is comfortable for you. You didn't say whether this test has backing strip or an open root, but I assume it has backing. I would personally not be comfortable with a 2-pass weld on 3/8" plate because there is too much chance of trapping slag or incomplete penetration in the root pass. Having said that, I've seen welders make single pass welds on 1" plate that passed bend tests, so I don't doubt there are welders that can make a 2-pass weld on 3/8" plate that will pass. For 3G position I usually use 1/8" rod and put in a single pass root (not split), a second layer weave to fill it about 1/16" below flush, then a final cover weave cover pass. I used to do a single pass root layer, then 2-pass 2nd layer, 3-pass 3rd layer and 3-pass cover pass until I learned how to control the weave and hold the sides long enough to not get trapped slag or incomplete fusion. Bottom line is you need to use a technique you are comfortable with. But keep an open mind and don't be afraid to try what your instructor is suggesting. One thing I've learned about welding is that I am continuously learning something new, even after 25 years.

Marty

By Mathius (**)

Date 11-30-2003 06:58

I'm really afraid to trust this guy due to his poor teaching habits. He brings in his own projects when he's supposed to be teaching us. He brought in a chair that he welded at home because it broke on the weld! The teacher's weld broke, on a chair! That seems crazy to me.

Also, he hardly makes it around to me, and when I have a problem with something, he usually doesn't even listen to what I say, he'll just show me the weld again.

About what you said about the 3g position, my certification lists the position as 3G, and I welded it in the flat position. I have a welding diagram that shows 3G as the "v" groove which can be done in several positions. I'm not trying to argue with you, but I had never heard that 1G was flat, 2g horizonal, etc. It makes sense. I still don't understand why I'm qualified for 3G then when I welded it flat, or why the diagram I have lists the 3G position for all welding positions.

On my 3/8" plate, I'm welding with .035 wire I think, and yes, I'm using a 1/4" backer.

Mathius

By vb

Date 11-30-2003 15:58

Hi Mathius,

I am sad to hear you do not seem to have a teacher who is eager to do his job. I think the best thing you should do is do what is most comfortable for you - whether your teacher has or has not suggested it. Just try to keep an open mind, and dont choose on the fact you have a bit of conflict with your teacher.

As for the welding positions, in subsection 6-9, it defines 1F, 2F, 3F(U), 4F as well as 1G, 2G, 3G(U), 3G(D), and 4G positions. AWS defines 3G as a vertical weld - and the (U) stands for upwards, and (D) is downwards:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-237/Ch6.htm#s4

In the chart it has passes numbered, and the position of them. I hope this helps you out. This is a great site that reveals much info about welding, so incase your teacher is too busy - it may help you out!

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-237/toc.htm

Good luck,
Vicki

By boilermaker (**)

Date 11-30-2003 19:25

It appears to me that one of two things is happening here...either you're not paying attention to the instructor, bad or not, you can always learn something from anyone...or this is a terrible school...In the basic welding class you should have learned the "G"s and their relative positions. I'm not passing judgement, but it sounds to me like you already know everything about welding, and there's nothing else to learn. Welding is a hands on thing and watching someone else do a weld is the first step of learning..Then repeat what the instructor does....It's highly possible that your instructor is a great welder, and not a good teacher...I can SHOW someone how to weld, but I cannot teach.
To the first question, if you're the one paying for the qual test do it the way you want..Or tell your instructor to pay you the money if he's dictating the method of depositing the weld metal. Outside of a WPS that specifies how to deposit and in what succession or manner I'll run a test how I feel comfortable..
Sorry for the long response, and hopefully it wasn't taken in the wrong context.
Regards, John

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-02-2003 09:08

I don't know what you're statement "it sounds to me like you already know everything there is to know about welding" is meant to portray. I don't know if you're saying that I sound like I'm a know it all and I won't listen, or if you're literally saying I know everything about the welding itself, I just need to practice? You will have to clarify for me.

As for the school, it's only a 60 hour course. My beginning class unfortunately was mostly arc welding, which I hope to not have to use too much in the future, mostly because arc welding tends to be used mostly outdoors from what I've seen and I'd rather be working in a shop somewhere building things. They don't spend a whole lot of time covering certifications due to the fact that A. There's a ton of them, and B. They're independant of the schools curiculum. You can take a certification test there at the school, but it isn't a requirement, so in the limited amount of time they have, they teach you how to weld, and if you aren't intertested in certifications they don't cover it. My teacher taught me the flat v groove because it was a good place to start, and because that particular 1" certification qualified me up to 4". (or so he stated)

As I said, I completely agree with your definitions of the welding positions 1 being flat, 2 horizontal, etc. My question comes up as to why my certification, which I turned in as a flat plate weld, lists as a 3G. I'm reading this to you right off the certification card.

Granted, there are things you can learn from a bad teacher, but I don't want to drop $50-75 on a certification and then find out I failed because he didn't teach me well. He may very well be a good welder in certain machines, and maybe he's just a poor TIG welder, which is why his chair broke, I don't know what the situation is, I don't want to know. What I am concerned with, is the lack of attention to my needs as a student, the time he spends on his own personal projects during class time that I paid for, and lastly he has us weld on scrap metal that is cut from previous welds. This wouldn't be an issue with me, except that I have to wait for him to cut them up to be used, which again, takes more time away from me that I could be welding.

Anways, we've sort of gotten off course, and you didn't really answer my stringer vs. weave question from a penetration standpoint. If you guys think a weave is fine, I can live with this. My concern is number one, slag inclusions, and number 2, filling a 3/8" groove with .035 wire seems incredible to me in just 2 passes. How can I be sure I'm getting penetration to the root? I want to be able to pass the bend test. The obvious answer is to cut a few samples and see, but this guy is wasting so much of my time already. I'll be honest, I don't feel comfortable running the wire as hot as he has it for two passes. I have to move a lot faster to control the puddle and keep it from running and I feel rushed. I think I ought to tell him I don't want to do it in 2 passes.

Mathius

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 12-02-2003 12:10

Mathius,
It sounds like he has the thing way to hot for your liking. If you aren't comfortable yet with trying to keep up with the machine set that hot, cut it back to where you can handle it and as you get more experience you'll be able to manage the puddle at the higher settings. I don't think I would let this discourage me, just explain your feelings with that instructor. If he has any common sense, he should be able to see that you aren't ready to run that hot yet and give you more time to manage the puddle at a slower rate before having you pour it in that groove, just to make it work out to two passes. I have some welders here at our plant that can pour on the heat and manage it fine, but I can't keep up with myself. They can pass the bends even running as hot as they do. These guys came from another plant where all the fit-up was done by a dozen fitters and there were only two welders to weld up all this material. They learned to get it done in a hurry and get it right, because they had no time to do over. All I'm trying to do is encourage you to learn to manage the puddle at your pace, I feel it is important that you feel comfortable with your technique. Speed will come as you progress.
Good Luck,
John Wright
BTW, I'm not going to speculate why the instructor qualified you in a 1G position and is trying to say that it qualifies you for 3G. If you are taking the tests according to D1.1, there is a Table 4.9 that says basically if you took a plate test in 1G, you are qualified to weld on plate, pipe, and box tube with some restrictions. Plate 1G in CJP or PJP joints, 1F and 2F in Fillets; Pipe Only qualified in 24" and greater OD. in 1G CJP and PJP joints, fillets in 1F and 2F; Box tube 1G on CJP and PJP joints with backing or back gouging, 1F and 2F with fillets. There are many more variables that I didn't list, but I think I gave you enough to figure out for yourself that 3G didn't show up anywhere on the Table for a plate test welded in 1G. At our shop through many trials and tribulations over certifications, we have learned to test every job applicant that comes in the door with papers in hand or not. Naturally the paper is an enhancer with getting to the test to be able to take it, so it may have some value if the employer has any confidence in it. Being able to back up what you claim you can do will more than likely show up in the test and how well you can handle the out of position coupon, so it is necessary to be able to weld in a 3G position if you are carrying around papers that say you are qualified in 3G. Keep practicing! :) Sorry this got to be so long of a read.

By stever

Date 12-02-2003 21:18

Mathias, I think the certification that states you are certified in 3G is a typo. If a non welding secretary wrote up the paper this could well be the fact. Have you asked the instructor? May be that the instructor wrote it and didn't catch it.

If you are taking certification tests, then it should be safe to say that there are written Welding Procedure Specifications for each test. These procedures should state the wire feed speed, voltage, and other parameters that will be used for testing. Will the instructor get you a copy of the paperwork, or at least show it to you? If you're paying tuition and extra for the test there should be set guidelines. If this is in a community college there should be an outline of exactly what is being taught, goals for the class, objectives, and how the objectives are graded. This is called a syllabus. If there is no organization to the class, then it is only a place to burn wire and weld chairs.

Each welding instructor is an individual. Totally a guess, but the instructor may think that you and your class mates have learned how to weld and now all that you need is to perfect your techniques. Have you discussed *your* goals with him? If you have made your goals and reasons for being in the class known to him and he does nothing to help you, then I would say he's there for the paycheck. If the majority of the class is like minded there are ways to make your collective needs known by following the student handbook. If you are the only one that is not happy, you have only one choice, stay or leave.

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-02-2003 21:56

The way certifications work at this school is simple. The school instructor calls the testing place which is located in cleveland, about 45 minutes away. He will give them the specs as to how to cut the plates. The school cuts the plates, and the instructor will visually inspect you while you're running the test. Our instructors will not send in a test that doesn't look as though it might pass. Likewise the school has cut a small deal with the testing place, in that, if they feel visually just by looking at it that it won't pass, they won't even bother running the test, because they know we are paying for it out of our own pocket. The paperwork I recieved is from the testing place and was not written up by my school, or teacher to the best of my knowledge. This is where my confusion is from, because I was under the impression this was some official testing lab, where they should be up to code or whatever you wanna call it in the welding industry. Everything is listed as 3G on each paper I recieved. In fact on the last page that shows my qualifications, it says my Qualification Range is 1,2,3-G / 1,2,3-F ? Is it possible that the testing place ran mine as a 3G in error? I don't understand how that can happen, I can usually visually tell at least from the students in our class, which is a vertical weld, vs. which is a flat weld. The vertical welds are never quite as small, or neat. Maybe they don't take into account that we are students.

As far as my instructor goes, I have told him exactly what I want out the class. I want enough certifications to get me out into the job force, so I can get my feet wet and start getting experience now, so I can start making better money as quickly as possible. I told him I wanted to get certifications in MIG, and TIG, and get a little bit of practice in Arc vertical and overhead because I have a pipe welding course in March.

My instructor made it around to me twice in the first class. I was working on a 1" v groove flat, because my original instructor for beginning told me it was the same test. My advanced instructor let me work on this for two classes, before he said, "I don't know why you're wasting your time on this? I'd just do vertical as it qualifies you for flat plate anyhow." Why did he let me waste two classes on this then? So then I switched to vertical for the next two classes. At the end of my second class, he said to me, "I don't know why you're using such thick plate. You'll probably never do anything bigger than 3/8" on a MIG." Again, why didn't he tell me this right away? So then I asked him specifically, what certifications he thought I should get to "get my feet wet". He said to me, "What's going to happen is you're going to go into a place with a certification and probably already be more qualified than the guys there, because most places don't require a certification. When you get there, they're going to want you to have a certain certification because they're going to be specialized in a certain area. What you need is just something to get your foot in the door." This is exactly what I said, and he still didn't answer my question! So I got fed up and looked in the local papers, and called all the places that had job openings, and asked them what they looked for. The answer I recieved was that in MIG, no bigger than 3/8", and probably 1/4" for TIG at the most. They said vertical and overhead would both be good for getting in the door, but that 6G and TIG is where you make the most money. (6G is pipe, correct?). From that point on, I have been working on the vertical v groove 3/8" MIG, with a bit of practice on an overhead t joint in MIG, and I got some very basic practice in TIG. As stated, with all these problems, my instructor has been less than helpful with the amount of stuff I want to achieve in my 60 hours. I really feel I won't have time to get to arc welding in this course, and I'll be lucky if I pickup TIG well enough to get any certifications. I may be able to get into the field with my MIG certifications when I get them, but I am most likely going to have to take another course now, which will run me another $650.

Mathius

By stever

Date 12-03-2003 00:18

Personally, I feel that the paperwork (WPS) should be on sight and available to the person being tested. This would eliminate any confusion and keep the instructors singing from the same page. The way you tell it everyone has differing ideas of what is needed in industry.

A student should never have to guess at what is being taught. That's that old saying that one should never *assume* anything.

If I allow my students to weld without the guidance of a hard copy it becomes confusing very quickly. The students tend to wander off track and it's near impossible to know where each one is on the training scale. Of course, all of this doesn't answer any of your questions.

The question of stringer beads is, in a training environment, just like your first instructor told you, easier to learn and to keep inclusions out of it. The weave bead is a more possible chance to have inclusions, but if executed properly there should be none. I teach both and test both. Some students have problems with one or both. Some students never have a problem.

As far as your instructor spending time with you there is another old saying,"the squeeky wheel gets the grease". How many students in the class. How much time does the instructor have that he can spend with each student per class? These questions will show how the instructor should divide his time. Of course, reality is another thing. Does he have to answer the phone, talk to potential new students, deal with salesmen, purchase materials, *cut materials for students to weld on*, pull maintenance on broken machines, start other students on new projects, be the safety monitor, deal with the administration, make sure the electrode oven is full, weld chairs, drink coffee, etc., etc., etc.
You may need to put yourself in front of him when, or before, you need help. Get his attention! Latch onto his shirt sleeve and wait till he will follow you back to your booth. Show him that you require his attention. If this doesn't work, then I would look at the student handbook to see what it would take to get someones attention.

By boilermaker (**)

Date 12-03-2003 16:32

Sorry about my jumping to conclusions earlier...It appears that you want to make a career out of the welding profession...So here's what I would do. A> Find someone who is a good welder and ask them to teach you. Theory, fundamentals and all of the important stuff that your school has apparently eliminated...OR B> Spend a lot more money and go to a "Welding School"... Not like what your taking now, but a school that costs' about 7 to 8 or even 9,000 for tuition...It will take a little longer, but schools like that normally have good repor with local employers and will likely have a job placement program implemented...If you go route "B" the next trip I would take is over to Boilermakers Local 744 in cleveland....Tell them you want to sign up for the boilermakers apprenticeship...

I've seen a lot of people in the position you're in and to be perfectly honest, the welders that come out of community colleges and fly-by- night welding schools, haven't impressed me much. They can't do basic stuff. I welded with a guy one time who couldn't even patch up duct work with P5, 3/32" welding flat..

Like I said earlier, you might want to consider some other options.
(sorry if I sounded like an ass in my previous reply)
Regards, John

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 12-03-2003 16:49

John; Good, sound advice! I began my career through the Boilermakers (Local 104 in Seattle) nearly 30 years ago and it was a very good start (got me a great paying job!). I've always been grateful to the Boilermakers for that opportunity even though I've allowed my membership to lapse. Good luck to the new welders ~ a wonderful career awaits you, one in which you should never find a lack of new challenges!

By welder6g (**)

Date 12-08-2003 14:35

Look,you aren`t going to learn everything you need to know in a 60 hour class or a 6,000 hr.class.I have been welding for over thirteen years and have more certifications than anyone else I know and I learn something new almost everyday in the shop and everytime I look in a Code Book.Don`t blame someone else for this.All instructors are at different levels and can only guide you.They cannot teach you everything you want or need to know.They cannot also read minds because beleive me some students are better off left alone for awhile and some get nervous when an instructor comes around.If you are really worried about his attention you have to go get him.Instructors are constantly working and busy and can`t watch welding arc for three hours a night.If Certifications are not part of the program then they are not required to teach you everything about this,nor do they have the time.I learned long ago if you want to do something for yourself,then you are the one that has to do the work.Do not wait for someone else to do something for you,because they won`t! Buy yourself some welding books and some AWS code books and find out for sure who is lying or holding back then question that person.You can teach someone who is lazy to get off thier behind and look it up.That is what welding is all about.

By Michael Sherman (***)

Date 12-08-2003 16:44

Mathius, what school are you at? I am in your area and I am just curious. Is the testing done at Herron or TQT? I have hired many students from local schools and I have met some of the instructors.

Mike Sherman
Shermans Welding

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-10-2003 06:05

I'm taking adult courses at the Lorain County JVS. I've heard that the day instructor is very very good and they turnout some good welders from LCJVS. I've delt with 3 instructors in the night class. The first guy was David Conade, but I only had him for one night in my beginning course. He had a family emergency and ended up leaving after just going over the safety tips. He worked for Columbia Gas, and seemed to have the most experience with Arc.

Ken Burngasser taught the remainder of the class. He spent about 45 minutes to an hour in the book at the beginning of class, and then spent the rest of the class teaching us hands on with the arc welder, which is the basic curiculum for the beginning class. He was very thorough, first making sure we could run stringers right on top of the next, to make one level weld, on flat plate, then had us go through all the joints, and finally we were able to go on to take the flat plate certification (which I now know to be 1" 1G position, although I got certified in 3G) if we wanted to. He was very flexible with us, but thorough. If we got burnt out on a joint and just couldn't get it, he had us move on to the next and come back to it. Some of the guys didn't make it past the v groove. He also showed us some carbon arc removal and let us play with that for a bit, as well as some acetylene welding, cutting, and brazing.

I don't know my current instructor's last name, we just refer to him as Alex. After 2 monthes of classes, he still can't remember my first name, so I'm not embarassed at all. He said he started welding in 1969, but he didn't give much else informaton. It's odd, because he said he graduated in 71, so he probably didn't start out on the job. He seems to favor sculpture welding more than anything else, based on the projects hes brought in, but I know he did weld in the construction field for a while. This is the instructor I have problems with.

I chose JVS, because at $650 a course, it was the most affordable, and it was also one of the quckest. The Lincoln school is about $3800 (this was a few years ago, I talked to a co-worker who sent his son there) and it's on the east side of cleveland, which is a long drive for me in Lorain County. They have a good school though I'm told, and a job placement program. The Lorain County Community College does teach welding, but it would take me about 4 years to earn, because of the way their courses are layed out. Each is a prerequisate of the one before it, and they were scheduled so I'd basically get to take one a year.

Hopefully once I get 3g certified in MIG, someone will give me a shot somewhere with a 3G MIG and 3G Arc, and I'll either be making more than I am in my current job, or they'll help pay for my next courses. I have no problem continuing to go to school to learn more as I enjoy welding. I enjoy it and I seem to be good at it. My problem is there is no consistency in my current teacher's methods, so I am constantly having to start over it seems like.

Mathius

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-10-2003 06:05

OH, btw. Sorry about such a long post, but the test was sent to TQT.

I'm told they're based in Cleveland?

Mathius

By Michael Sherman (***)

Date 12-10-2003 20:58

Mathius, two things come to mind here. 1) I know the owner of TQT personally (Mark Demshak) and if he made a mistake on your certs, you should call him. I will be seeing him next Tuesday at the Cleveland AWS Christmas auction. His testing facility is off of Brookpark near the airport. 2) I own a business and I employ welders, I would not suggest that you pay for a GMAW cert. It is not going to help you get a job. In most manufacturing facilities around here mig welders are the lowest paid welders and their skill level is also the lowest. You do need to be good at GMAW, just don't waste money getting certified in it. You need to learn SMAW first. This is going to be your bread and butter. FCAW is becoming much more important too. In my humble opinion, learning SMAW of plate and then pipe, along with what I call the "book" part of it. Knowing when and why you need to use an electrode will get you the furthest. Also, listen to the advice you are getting from some of the other people on this board, some of it is very good advice. Good luck.

Mike Sherman
Shermans Welding

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-11-2003 08:18

Mike,

Honestly, I'm really not certain where I want to use welding in the field. I know I enjoy welding, but I also prefer working indoors in a shop-like environment, and I enjoy building things, rather than just running the same weld over and over again. From these things, I'm thinking I'll either end up in the fabricating or maintnance parts of the field, if I don't go into some type of machining, or maybe even autobody. All I know right now, is that I enjoy welding and I want to get out there and get paid to do it!

I agree that GMAW is probably the lowest paid, but I have come to the understanding that it is one of the most desired in my area besides GTAW. I am currently looking into taking additional classes (at additional expense) to learn the GTAW process better, but as I am not 100% certain where I'm going to end up, I'm trying to get the GMAW for the simple fact of getting out there quickly. Unfortunately, the GMAW test is already paid for, I'm just awaiting my teacher's approval to send one in, so this is a moot point. Should I avoid getting an overhead certification? What do you (or maybe someone else can chime in here) suggest I do to get out in the field then. Maybe I've been looking at this the wrong way.

If I am in error in this, correct me, but isn't SMAW mostly used in pipe or construction areas, where most of the work is done outdoors? It was my understanding that this was one of the conviences of arc welding, is the machines are very portable. Working outdoors, or on construction just filling joints all day doesn't really appeal to me, even though I could make money in it.

Mathius

By Michael Sherman (***)

Date 12-11-2003 14:20

I guess I understand your predicament a little better now. I would still tell you to learn SMAW first. If you can weld a 6G pipe with E6010 and E7018, GMAW will come with about an hour of practice and instruction. Unfortunately you are not being instructed by someone who thinks like I do. That's okay, different mindsets are what make this world go around. I think you have really already been given all the advice you need from a lot of very experienced people. You need to sit back, read the replies again and just make a decision on your future, on your own. Good luck.

Mike Sherman
Shermans Welding

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-12-2003 04:45

I want to make a correction here, I listed David Conade (I meant to type Concade), but his name is actually spelled David Kinkaid.

Also, I learned tonight that my instructors last name is Stoll, Alex Stoll.

My opinion of him slipped another notch, as he's showed up the last 2 classes under alcoholic influence. This class tonight, he was highly inebriated (sp?) tripping over things, studdering, and you could smell him coming from about 4 feet away. I spoke with the school supervisor, but I don't know what was done about it. I will be re-taking their beginning course, but I won't be on the beginning curiculum, I'll be learning TIG instead. I've been assured by the supervisor that Kinkaid or Burngasser will be teaching that class. I hope it's Burngasser, his tig looks like icing on a cake. It's perty.

Mathius

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-10-2003 05:53

Your message here is really rather depressing. You're basically telling me to just pay for the welding machines and material and teach myself.

The school literally doesn't have a curriculum for their advanced class. You come in and they teach you what you want to learn. With a curriculm base like that, if you come in looking for a certification, it's their job to teach it.

The guy has had me run this test now about a billion times it seems. He had me run it on scrap, until he was ready to teach me to do it in 2 passes. Then he had me run it in 2 passes until he was ready to cut me 'official' plates. Then he's had me run it again about a million times since. He keeps finding miniscule problems that prevent me from getting a test sent in for 3 classes now.

I could appreciate him trying to make sure I pass. But each time I run it and he finds something wrong with it, he has me adjust my machine settings to correct the problem, instead of just letting me run it again. So I cannot develope any kind of consistency because I'm constantly running a different size puddle, or having to move quicker, etc. This would be a great method of teaching me how to weld on anything, or under different situations, but I paid $75 for the test to be sent in, and he has not helped me get it sent in. I now feel I won't have time to learn the overhead process, and I may have difficulties getting a job with only a 3g certification to back me up. I also lost out on having any time to learn TIG because he's had me waste so much time on MIG.

Don't get me wrong, there are some good things about this guy, for example, he said if he runs the pipe welding class in march, he's willing to teach me on stainless with TIG, whereas the other instructor I had said it would be strictly arc welding. I have no desire to use the arc welder anymore than I have so far and was thinking of dropping the class in favor of another advanced class. Now it looks like I may change my mind.

My problem is this guy acts like I have all the time in the world, and doesn't clearly answer my questions, respect my time I've paid for, or stay on task.

Mathius

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 12-10-2003 09:15

Hi Mathius!
If I was to get back every penny that I thought was owed back to me due to my own very subjective rather than objective opinion about one educator or another not providing me the proper education necessary to prepare me for immediate "TOP PAY" earnings or a multitude of certifications (Actually these were really qualifications but that's another story!) upon completion of any of the many welding courses I took during my time of learning to get ready to go out their and really start to learn this skill called welding, I'd be a very rich man today!!!
In reality, I'm much richer today than I ever thought possible based on all of the knowledge, experience and wisdom I've accumulated over the years (a total of over 30 years experience welding in one form or another and teaching on and off for about nine years)!!! This does'nt mean that I know everything there is to know about welding - Heck no!!! I'm still learning as I type and not just about welding but also about everything that's good in life because son, you only live once - after that who knows and who really cares!!!
I know that for myself, I've been blessed with a second chance that most people will never have in their lives and you cannot put a price on that!!!
All that training helped a little but, I learned more being out there in the fields, yes - I mean more than one when I type FIELDS!!!
Son, there is so much to learn out there and never enough time to learn all of it!!!
Most IMPORTANT of all, do yourself a very big favor by stopping your personal indifference with your current instructor... I mean, work with him instead of trying to disapprove of his methods. Do'nt be so hard on yourself in trying to get this all at once!!! You'll get it when you get it and not a moment sooner!!!
Correct me if I'm mistaken here but, you mentioned that it seems that your instructor has had you "run this test now about a billion times it seems" well did'nt it ever occur to you that it was'nt really whether he was ready but rather whether or not you were ready to be taught how to run it in two passes and subsequently ready to be given "official " plates for the "official" test??? Think about it Mathius!!!

Great Welders (Weldor means singular in Kings English and welder(s) when applied to humans is more often used in a both singular or plural sense when used as grammatical terms in the good young U.S. of A!!!)
exhibit an extraordinary amount of patience and since you are in the process of learning son, start now in developing some patience towards others that might not always be of your liking!!!
I'll end this conversation with you by stating the fact that too often
(I am guilty of this myself) when we try to learn something that we want to be really good at so much, we often find ourselves disappointed when we acually start learning that something by reacting as to why it took so long for us to learn whatever it is we're learning and your example would be one of the many different reactions such as putting blame on the provider of learning, meaning the instructor then, as time goes by as slowly or as in my case - as fast as it does, we tend to look at it from a different perspective and often a much more forgiving one at that... I'll give you an example that I'm sure some of my fellow instructors would concurr; More that once has a former student or students have come back to visit the school where they learned and confessed to the current class being taught at that time that they did'nt really like me as an instructor so much because I did'nt go along with their opinions as they would've liked while they were here learning!!!
They also emphasized that back then - they did'nt think that they were being properly taught by me only to reevaluate their experience later on as they gained practical work experience and confidence in their skill level by admitting that they were too quick to judge me and feeling alot of guilt in their audacity to even think that they had the right to judge me for my methods of teaching!!! In fact, they readily admitted to the current class that they heard my voice over and over in their heads as they were confronted with a variety of different situations out in the real fields!!! Most important of all was the fact that they tried their best to explain to the current class that some of my methods will at first be looked upon by them to be very frustrating and unreasonable at first! However, you'll be greatful later on that our instructor taught you that way!!! I was really touched by their message to the current class because all I ever wanted to achieve when I teach is to instruct my students how to learn whatever it was or is that I'm teaching them and there was the confirmation I needed to hear from who else but - my former students that I had achieved just that with them!!!

Mathius! I'm sure that you are a good natured person so, I implore you to look back at what you've already written here and revisit what you said about; "He keeps finding miniscule problems that prevent me from getting a test sent in for 3 classes now." Look at that statement and honestly ask yourself; "Were my first set of plates as good as the next set etc., etc.???" If you're honest with yourself, you'll agree that in fact your instructor did teach you something about practice, patience, discontiuities and defects. He also helped in improving your weld quality and consistency!!! Oh yeah!!! The instructor did teach you something relevant and worth alot more than what you payed for only you do not realize it YET!!! Relax son, you'll have plenty of time to learn what you need to get ahead in life!!! Just remember not to forget to breathe every once in awhile!!! Okay?
I wish you the best in all of your endevours!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

P.S. I'm Back!!! I had to run silent for awhile there so as not to blow off too much steam because man - my reactor was running at 120% and now it's back to a normal 80%!!! Miss me much??? I did'nt think so!!!

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 12-11-2003 03:51

SSBN,

SCRAM! :)

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 12-12-2003 05:35

Hugs and Kisses to you too Pipewelder 1999!!!
But I'm not going anywhere else but here...........*****:)
Missed me that much huh?????
I just love that "Southern Hospitality" I get from you!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 12-12-2003 17:00

Isn't that the term they use for shutting down a reactor ?

GA

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 12-14-2003 07:26

How Astute of You!!!!

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-11-2003 08:09

I agree with what you say here, but a lot of what you say is a contradiction in itself. You say that I should relax and just learn, but you also point out that you've learned welding over a period of 30 years. The majority of learning isn't going to be in a school environment. My whole point here, is I'm working on a limited time schedule, and I need to accomplish getting the skills needed to get out in the work force, period. I can always further my skills, but I can't start accumulating on the job time, until I'm out there.

I don't have the convenience of just learning.

As far as your question of my miniscule problems, and whether I am good enough to run it in 2 passes, etc. I agree with you there also, but that is part of my problem. I feel I have been good enough to run and pass the test for quite some time. My problem is, trying to conform to whatever it is that he is looking for. There isn't just one way to pass the test. My welding ability is good, trying to consistently figure out what he wants, when he's constantly changing things, is the real pain.

Everytime I run a test, he'll make a new comment on my technique and make me change the way I'm welding physically, or he'll play with my machine settings and tell me to try something different. I'm not developing any consistency that way, so I cannot come up with what he wants.

As I said, this is helpful in that I'm learning to weld under a variety of heat settings, and physical positions, but it isn't helping me pass the test, which is what I'm paying for.

Mathius

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 12-12-2003 05:56

Hi Mathius!
I'm glad you are of the sort than can agree to disagree...
I did not read your later reply about your instructor being "Three Sheets in the Wind" during class as you know because it was'nt posted yet...

Upon reading your latest post about your instructor's incompetency, I must agree with your atitude now that this new information has come to light!!!

This individual has a disease that must be treated but not by letting this instructor attempt to teach you or any other student while intoxicated!!!
What amazes me is that nobody else from the staff, whether it be a fellow instructor or a receptionist even noticed his condition prior to you reporting it to whoever it was or is in charge of the institution you are enrolled in????

Anywho, I believe now that you've been shortchanged and deserve some sort of restitution from the school you're attending!!!

Had I known that this instructor was acting in such an unprofessional manner, I assure you that my initial reply to you would've been much different!!!
All I can say to you is keep fighting until justice has been served!!!
Once you're satisfied, please do'nt look upon all other instructors as being like this one anomoly you encountered... Only then - can you continue to progress to where you want to go!!!!!
Remember - Do'nt forget to BREATHE!!! Okay???
Best of luck to you and may you find JUSTICE!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

P.S. Mathius, Ive been welding for over 30 years now and I've have'nt stopped learning YET!!! For your own sake - Do'nt Stop Learning Ever!!!

By Mathius (**)

Date 12-12-2003 19:53

Thank you for your advice. I will never stop learning, I hope you didn't get the impression that I wasn't grateful for that portion of this. Going to the vocational school was the best career move I've ever made as I don't have to learn from a book, and I'm really learning some things about myself as to what I want to be doing in the future, which is something I lacked in the past, i.e. direction or a plan, which is why I didn't go to college right out of high school. At 23, it's not too late for me though :) I'm already planning on taking their masonry course, and possibly some machining, and/or autobody courses, provided I can get a job on first shift and free up my evenings. Right now I'm going to school on my 2 nights off.

I don't think I'm going to get any re-embursement for the class, no matter how much I push. We only have 2 classes left. If I had gone to the supervisor earlier with my complaints, or Stoll had showed up under the influence earlier in the course, I might have been able to do something, but I've almost completed the course. If he shows up plastered again, I might have a better case after already complaining once, but right now, I'm just hoping to get the GMAW test out of the way and start fresh in another class.

It's the pipe class I'm worried about as my supervisor said Stoll is technically the most qualified to teach it to me in TIG as that is his specialty. Unfortunately I've seen his TIG on his "projects" and I personally feel it's awful. I am hoping Burngasser turns up in the rotation and gets the class. I don't hold any negative opinions towards the rest of the instructors, or the school. I hold each individual to their own presentation of themselves.

Lastly I want to say that your advice to "just breathe" is in a metiphorical sense perhaps the best life advice anyone can get. If we all learn a little bit more patience and just be kind to one another, the world will be a better place. I am learning this the hard way, having just broke up with my fiance 3 monthes ago after we had some problems. I'm having quite a string of bad luck, and patience is the best medication. It's good to remind ourselves that we've been through tough times before and we're still here. I can't think of anything worth losing your cool over. Hopefully my string of bad luck will end, school will go well, and my fiance will return.

Good luck to everyone, and thanks for all your advice. I really feel this board was an uncovered treasure and I will continue to tap into the knowledge here as I continue to educate myself. Just to let everyone know who's been following this thread, I called TQT today and they're going to send me out my proper certification. I tore the old one up. I don't want to be out there on the job welding vertical that I'm not qualified for and have a bridge fall on someone. That could not only screw with me individually, but hurt other people, as well as possibly damage the reputation of TQT, and my school. If I had known about the certification being in error in the first place, I would have taken care of it right away.

Thanks everyone,
Mathius

By qcmcwi Date 12-09-2003 06:38

Mathius, grab a copy of D1.1 (mine is 1998)
in my copy section 3.7.2 states "Neither the depth nor the maximum width in the cross section of weld metal deposited in each weld pass shall exceed the width at the surface of the weld pass."
Table 3.7 (any year) gives guidance on width (FCAW/GMAW) depending on joint conf. and directs "split layers" which to me and any I have discussed it with means stringers
for a test, do not weave any more than is comfortable (normal hand oscillation), don't try to weave a pass in, it will not be as clean as stringers. During inspection I hold the welder to the #'s from table 3.7.

By MBSims

Date 12-12-2003 04:01

"Neither the depth nor the maximum width in the cross section of weld metal deposited in each weld pass shall exceed the width at the surface of the weld pass."

This requirement is a good example of why D1.1 has become such a pain in the derrier to use. They come up with these off-the-wall, legalese requirements that have no technical foundation. How many welds are wider at the bottom or middle than they are on the surface? If I weld a 1" wide weave, this says the depth of the bead can be 1". So, on 1" thick plate it would be permissible to weld it in a single pass (per this requirement), as long as the width of the bead at the surface was at least 1". I don't have D1.1 here at home, but I recall there are other limits on maximum layer thickness that would prevent this.

Marty

By boilermaker (**)

Date 12-12-2003 15:44

MB....What page is that statement on in the D1.1? I'm having a hard time finding it!

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 12-12-2003 16:50

AWS D1.1:2002, Section 3, Paragraph 3.7.2 Width/Depth Pass Limitation. Neither the depth nor the maximum width in cross section of the weld metal deposited in each pass shall exceed the width at the surface of the weld pass(see figure 3.1).
See C3.7.2 for the commentary on the why's and what for's concerning this. Also see figure C3.1 for the examples of centerline cracking due to not following the limitations of 3.7.2.

Remember this is for prequalified joints...If you can qualify a procedure that doesn't adhere to this limitation and it passes all the rigors of testing, I guess it would be OK then.
John Wright

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 12-12-2003 17:53

I did a little figuring(smell the smoke?). If you take the B-U2a prequalified joint and look at the FCAW/GMAW joint configs. If you use the 1/4 Root and the 45 bev. the weld face will work out to 9/16. If you use the 3/8 root and the 30 bev. it works out to a 9/16 weld face. But if you use the 3/16 root and the 30 bev. it works out to a 3/8 weld face. So given that, could you possibly fill this joint in one pass on 3/8 plate?
Comments?
John Wright

By qcmcwi Date 12-09-2003 06:40

3/8" test plate is 3 passes to me
people are paid by these papers don't chance it to save time or wire

By qcmcwi Date 12-09-2003 06:40

1 more
stringers and weaves are defined in the glossary of D1.1

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 12-09-2003 11:50

I would learn any technique presented and try to become proficient. There are places for weaves and places for stringers and most places it just doesn't matter.

For plain carbon steel you have quite a latitude for heat input. I seldom carry a large puddle when welding flat. The excess weld metal prevents the arc energy from getting to the basemetal. I use weaves vertical usually but when flat I may use them but will pay close attention to the slag.

Bead placement is not as important running weaves as you typically have less chance of forming sharp "v's" in the weldmetal (See http://weldinginspectionsvcs.com/beadSequence.htm)

Weave beads have LESS layers to trap slag or LOF but have more starts and stops within the are of interest on a test plate.

Sometimes watching quitely and self study can supplement what teachers show you. There are many techniques for welding. Learn them all and through experience and learning about processes, joint designs, distortion control, heat input problems, joint restraing, etc. Apply them as you become more experienced.

I had a teacher at Kingsbury Vocational High School in Memphis years ago that got me interested in learning more than he taught me how to weld. I carry the results of that knowledge today.

Have a nice day and I hope it works out for you.

Gerald Austin
Iuka, Miss.

No matter how you wiggle it, 135 amps melts X lbsof metal per hour for a given electrode size PERIOD. Some techniques may maximize the arc time.

By lonewolf658 (*)

Date 03-29-2009 17:40

Mathius, I.m not a CWIand probably hav eno righ tot comment ,if i am wrongi hope it gets pointed out tome as well. In the process of weldng pipe any postion and any type of the diffrent types of welding(Arc ,Tig ,Mig)etc... you run your root,thenyour stringer or hotpass,after that you start your fillerbeads if its like the 6G cert on 6inch pipe,dependign on the witdth of you cap will also determine the # of beads you apply don't forget you canhave to wide of a cap so sometimes its reccommended to run 2 beads .Gentlemen if this isnt correct please inform me as well, i learne dto weld and even though they wernt bad i was told i make a better inspector or teacher than a welder ,i took no offense inthis because i learned to look for problems in the welds this way.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-29-2009 21:38

I'm just kinda wondering why you are putting advice to a thread that nobody has added a word to in 5 1/2 years :)

By CWI555

Date 03-29-2009 22:24 Edited 03-30-2009 13:13

Well you know the historical files are in tact.

By 803056

Date 03-30-2009 12:53

If I had to guess, I would say Lonewolf is very bored and very lonely.

Best regards - Al

By johnnyh (***)

Date 03-30-2009 20:15

.......and maybe a little tipsy, too!

By swsweld (****)

Date 03-31-2009 01:56

LOL...that's funny.
He gives new meaning to "a day late and a dollar short"

By 803056

Date 04-02-2009 03:23

:)
Al

By lonewolf658 (*)

Date 04-07-2009 01:50

Sorry,if i stepped where i didnt belong,as you gentlemen so well put it ,when your not familier with how the system works keep quiet .Glad you guys got a good laugh i only wanted to try and help. So you understand i,m a relocated worker did welding when i was young so got back into it and was asked why didnt i inspect since my welds wernt perfect(to much helping others instead of helping myself).So i am trying 1 book at a time til i can afford another and so on .Readign your forums has taught me to not rush into this but learn more beforei attempt anything like most things you only get one chance at things.I may make alot of mistakes but theres some i wont be making after this that will be read only keep comments to myself na dwork out my own problems.I always thought my only problem would be the welders attitides and companys expenses ,didnt know i would have to deal with others that jump on someone new and trys to help .Thanx for the insight and have a good one on me , btw if i was bored i wouldnt be reading the knowledge you gentlemen post on here for one and as far as being tipsy i dont drink wheni work this is work for me as well trying to improve myself with a better career .For those of you that this might offend i appoligize.Guess i dont belong here either thats why the name is Lonewolf

By 803056

Date 04-07-2009 03:40

Accept my apology Lone Wolf. I wasn't trying to be mean, just trying to make a little light humor that someone would reading some very old threads here on the forum.

Everyone is welcome to the forum. Everyone here depends on someone else for some advice, that's the way it works. Every now and again something pops up that tickles the funny bone. Your comment just touched the right spot at the right time.

We should have been impressed that you would take the time to search the old treads for some interesting reading. I, for one, haven't seen too many people go back to read threads that are a few years old. I wouldn't do that unless there was something really important to me and I was researching the forum looking for an answer or I was burning some free time. It is rarer yet to have someone respond to a thread that is a couple of years old. Nothing wrong with doing so, but I would hope the poster would have received an answer long before now.

Don't give up on us yet! Our attempts to amuse each other sometimes misses the mark, but nothing malicious is intended.

Best regards - Al

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-07-2009 05:14 Edited 04-07-2009 05:17

Me too.

I wouldn't have tweaked you about the dates if I had known it would snowball like that..

It looks unkind now, and that was not the intention... Just a little humor..

You pipe up anytime, because everybody from everywhere is welcome here.

I'll say something stupid any minute... and you can have first crack at me :)