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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Titanium Weld
- - By alfred aryadi e (*) Date 12-15-2003 07:30
hi, i am from Indonesia
last week we weld , rapir weld for crack indication-localy, Titanium part (AMS 4901) with filler AMS 4951. We not preaheat. the crack dimension is about 1" length. after weld, we stressed release by heating localy to 635 deg. celcius for two hrs. it was done in open air, by radiant energy (like a lamp). not covered by argon. after the part beeing cool, there was new crack on area that been stress release, not on the weld area.
after we remove the crack by hand, then we weld, there was generate more new crack on that area.
why it happened. what is the affect if we not to pre heat and stress release? i need some advice for the case.
thank you
Parent - By boilermaker (**) Date 12-15-2003 15:27
I'll go out on a limb here and say that probably when you put a 635d.C PWHT on it in open air, you probably contaminated the whole piece you were welding...Also, when you removed the crack intially, did you use dedicated tools, ie. grinders, files, etc, that had not come into contact with anything other than TI as so not to contaminate them? I'm not a titanium welder, so I'm just giving information that I have read. (my disclosure statement)
Regards,
John
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-16-2003 11:41
Hi Alfred!
A few questions need to be asked before any of us can even come close to giving you some possible causes for the cracks in your "case"...

1) Is the AMS 4951 Ti filler metal the most compatable filler metal for a part consisting of AMS 4901 Ti base or parent metal?

2) What is the thickness of the metal and is it tube, pipe or plate?

3) Did you back purge the base metal prior to welding the initial crack?

4) How deep and what size groove did you prepare the crack for welding?

5) During the welding of the crack, did you use a trailing shield along with the shielding gas of the TIG/GTA torch?

6) Do you know what color was the weld at the face, HAZ and possibly at the root of the weld prior to stress relieving and what was the color of the metal in the stress relieved zone after the metal was allowed to cool to room temperature?

7) I do'nt mean to be rude but, how much do you know about Titanium?

I ask this because as Boilermaker suggested, stress relieving Ti, especially a Ti alloy in open air at 635 degrees C or approximately 1175-80 deg. F and then letting it cool to room temp without any protection from atmospheric contamination was not very thoughtful of you or whoever performed and was in charge of the work - to say the least!!!
Note: The max annealing (Not the annealed!) or stress relieving temp should be no more than 1000 - 1100 deg. F (538 deg. C - 593 deg. C) in open air for 30 minutes... Reference from Allegheny Technologies webpage for CP grade 4 Ti AMS 4901/Allvac70 CP-4 Titanium/UNSR50700.
Here's the website: http://www.allvac.com/allvac/pages/Titanium/UNSR50700.htm
When you get there scroll down to the Allvac CP series technical data sheets that are available in either .html or .pdf format; Once you get to the data sheets, scroll down to "Heat Treatment" and "Special Precautions" and read what is written...
This also probably was the cause of the new crack outside of the weld area... When you tried to repair the new crack in the incorrectly stress relieved zone, another crack was generated because you did not initially protect the stress relieved zone from atmospheric contamination prior to and while the zone was at the described temperature (635 degrees C?) also - while cooling down to room temperature!!!
Therefore, most likely the root cause of your problems encountered after your initial weld repair was due to the lack of atmospheric protection (PURGING OR SHIELDING) at the stress relieved zone of the base metal!!!
Why? The base metal alloy's microstructure changed (It gets excited!) during stress relieving which is normal but because that area was not shielded or purged from the AIR, just think about it for a minute -either oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide and most likely hydrogen got in between those crystalline structures and at least with the oxygen, carbon or hydrogen, reacted with the titanium!!! Voila! Not only did you get a reaction from the oxygen or nitrogen, you probably also got some hydrogen or carbon entrapment or embrittlement as the base metal in the stress relieved zone cooled off!!! The metal never had a chance (stress relieved for too long!) to change properly again back to the proper grain structures (Abnormal & uncontrolled grain growth and alot of voids in between!) and therefore maintain it's mechanical properties, plus the fact that you had too much of what was already in the original crystalline structures which only had minute amounts of oxygen, nitrogen, carbon and hydrogen!!!
I use the word "PROBABLY" alot in my assessment and for good reason!!! It's because I do not have all the necessary details on how you actually performed the repair and the other details such as some the ones listed above in the form of questions!!!
The only way to know for sure is to perform a detailed metallurgical study for sure but based on the information you already provided, I'd say that the root cause is leaning heavily towards the fact that you did not shield or purge the stress relieved zone prior to, during and after "stress releasing" the part!!! Titanium and it's alloyed variants make a REACTIVE metal so careful consideration should be taken when working with this metal and it's alloy variants!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-16-2003 17:06

Don't have time for a full length reply but here is some good data from "Timet"

http://www.timet.com/fab-p33.htm

The questions about purge/shielding of top and bottom of the weld and the color associated (if any) are vital.

I am curious about your "like a lamp" equipment for stress relief.
While your temperatures appear to be within norms, is it possible that heating was uneven? If the surface exceeded your stated 635 C in order to get a full soak you may have indeed created a soluable condition that is detremental to the integrety of your part.

Here is a little excerpt from Timet
"TIMETAL Code-12 grades, are typically stress-relieved at 900-1000 degrees F. for 45 minutes and annealed at 1300 degrees F. for two hours. A slightly higher stress relief temperature (1100 degrees F., 2 hrs.) and annealing temperature (1350 degrees F., 4 hrs.) are appropriate for the TIMETAL 6-4 alloy. Air cooling is generally acceptable."
"Although no special furnace equipment or protective atmosphere is required for titanium, a slightly oxidizing atmosphere is recommended to prevent pickup of hydrogen. Direct flame impingement for extended periods, leading to temperatures in excess of 1200 degrees F, should be avoided because of the potential for contamination and embrittlement. Hydrogen or cracked ammonia atmospheres, also, should never be used, because their use would lead to excessive hydrogen pick-up, and embrittlement."


Knowing the joint thickness and geometry will also help determine if the secondary crack was born of internal stress or contamination.

More data will help provide higher quality advice.

By the way. Are you working to a published specification? If you are please tell us that also.

Lawrence

Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-16-2003 23:41
Hi Lawrence!
As I suspected without looking at TIMET's webpage, the temperature used to stress relieve the part was too high for my memory without an oxidizing atmosphere!
As you correctly pointed out, TIMET does recommend lower temps for annealing and stress relieving and emphasizes the importance of cleaning the part prior to annealing or stress relieving which could've also been overlooked in the above case...

Btw, is an AMS (sorry for the previous typo's) 4951 filler metal also a ASTM grade 4 Ti metal? I could'nt find it in TIMET's website so I'm just curious about the choice of this filler used in the weld...

I believe even more now that the cause of the crack in the stress relieved zone was mostly in part due to the uneven temperature used
(635 deg. C?) and if the part was'nt cleaned prior to stress relieving then it just would've added contamination to the zone that eventually cracked... I agree also with you about the possible uneven heating by this device which Alfred described "like a lamp" to be the main culprit!
I'm curious as to how the amount of heat (Temperature) was being monitored while reaching, at max temp and during cooling of the part in the stress relief phase of this case, hmmm... Was a pyrometer or temp sticks used and if possible could you describe the method used to monitor the temperature?
Another question for Alfred is; how far away from the weld was the location of the crack in the stress relieved zone? Also in relation to the initial weld repair, where was the heating device situated? Maybe this amounts to nothing but, I'm not sure if the filler metal used did'nt play a part and without anymore info my skeptical mind for whatever reason does'nt want to rule that out just yet so I'd be interested to know this if indeed the filler also had something to do with this... Probably not but, just curious.

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-17-2003 23:54
SSBN,

Well the original poster has yet to respond but we are sure having a whale of a time!

AMS 4951 is regarded as commercially pure (grade 2) welding wire.
Here is another good excerpt from Lancaster Alloys http://www.lawires.com/t-ttn2.htm

“This alloy, (4951) (and other classes of AWS) referred to as commercially pure (C.P), is the most widely used titanium alloy for industrial applications because of its good balance of strength, formability and weldability. Typical uses are in sea water and brackish water heat exchangers, chemical process heat exchangers, pressure vessels and piping systems, pulp bleaching systems, air pollution control scrubbers, electrochemical and chemical storage tanks and in the aerospace and aircraft industries.”
“In welding Commercially Pure titanium, it is customary to use filler metal one or two grades lower than the parent metal. For example, on 80,000 PSI strength of parent metal use 65,000 PSI filler metal. Dilution and a small pickup of interstitial contaminants will strengthen the weld. The soft filler is relatively pure and will tolerate more contaminants before its toughness and ductility are seriously impaired. AMS specification 4951 encompasses all the commercially pure welding wires.”
“The Ti-6Al-4V alloy usually is welded with 4954 filler. However, commercially pure titanium filler of the 80,000 PSI grade gives a distinct improvement in ductility, but also a loss in strength that will depend on weld dilution for example, a 3/16-in thick V-groove butt joint in an aerospace tank gave 85% efficiency.”

With the 4901 parent material (also commercially pure) being grade 4 and the 4951 filler wire being grade 2 the choice appears to be in the ballpark. It’s looking more and more like the failure might be due to heat induced contamination causing embrittlement
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-18-2003 01:20
Hi Lawrence!
I was hoping that was the reason why they chose to go with that filler but I could'nt verify that yesterday because I did'nt have an AMS chart readily available until today so, thanks for your input on the filler selection...

I've gotta also agree with your assessment here regarding the heat induced contamination causing embrittlement which led to a new crack on the part away from the weld itself...
Indonesia being made up of islands is surrounded by water so, I would imagine that the amount of moisture in the air would be enough to increase the potential for hydrogen embrittlement due to excessive and uneven heat temperature stress relieving as was the case with Alfred's part.
Also at those temps, Oxygen, nitrogen and carbon pick up would've also have to be included on the list of probable contaminants

I hope this fella did'nt get offended by my remarks in my previous reply because that was not my intention! Just for the record... I did edit my initial replies because of my own intially incorrect conversion (what was I thinking???) from Celsius to Farenheit numbers (maybe it was how much money I owe!!!) and went to another very good website to find out more info the AMS 4901 part material specs which I also included in my edited initial reply - this just confirms that the stress relieving temperature used was just a bit too high for open air especially after the part had already been in use (for how long???), repaired for having a crack (creep, fatigue or some form of internal stress???) by welding the crack - I mean you get the picture!!!
I guess some people misinterpret the term "Annealed" with "Stress Relieving" or "Annealing" - Different temperatures used for sure!!!
TIMET's recommendations for their version of CP grade 4 Ti (TIMETAL 75A) was even less forgiving when it came to stress relieving temperatures!!! 932 degrees F (500 C) for 30 minutes also, Air cooled (Table 3: Heat Treatment)...
http://www.timet.com/75aframe.html
Oh well, different strokes for different folks!!!
Furthermore, if you look at table 6: Typical Elevated Temperature Tensile Properties - you'll notice that the higher the temp, the lower the yield and ultimate tensile strength. Elongation increases as the temperature is increased to 572 degrees F (35%) and then lowers back to 33% @ 752 deg. F. Somwhere between 752 degrees F and 842 degrees F there is no longer any elongation, hmmmm!!! Did he reach "The Breaking Point" soaking the part at 635deg. C ???

It's always good to know that there are individuals like yourself and others with a wealth of knowledge and experience with regards to welding and fabricating Ti and it's alloys in this forum!!!

How are things in Wisconsin? Did you get alot of snow yet?
Over here in Pittsburgh, we got enough to make up for all those previous years of relatively little snowfall!!!

Anywho, always a pleasure collaborating with you Lawrence!!!
May you and your family enjoy the upcoming hoildays in a safe and peaceful manner!!! That goes for everybody else also!!!

Ho - Ho - Ho - MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

P.S. nice link!
Parent - By Niekie3 (***) Date 12-18-2003 19:18
Hi Lawrence

Thanks for the link. Some really usefull info there!

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Titanium Weld

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