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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Twist-off-type bolts
- - By jtmiller Date 12-16-2003 15:17
If you conduct a pre-installation tension test on twist-off-type bolts and they develope the required tension, do you have to "torque test" any more once they are in the structure?
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-16-2003 15:40
Hi jtmiller,
Are you testing the min of three bolts per lot? If you are using the same TC gun, I don't see the point going any further than what the RCSC minimums are. I'm not familiar testing in the field, so you may encounter more variables due to more than one operator, more than one gun, order of snug tightening, etc... (during pre-installation verification of the three bolts/lot)-If you are ringing the tips off at 5% or more than the required tension, you should be able to say that the lot is good and then with final inspection verifying all the bolts have the tips sheared should indicate you have met the min. tensions required. Keep records of your pre-installation tension figures.

Anyone else want to add anything that I might have missed mentioning?
John Wright
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 12-16-2003 18:15
No torque testing is required. After the bolts are tested in a Skidmore all you do is make sure the joint is fully snugged and plies are compacted prior to snapping the splines off. It wont matter what wrench you use to snap the splines because the bolts are calibrated, not the wrench.

If you have some reason to suspect tightening was not done correctly, you will have to discuss resolution with all parties. Torque testing would be difficult unless you have hex head TC bolts so that the bolt can be held from turning. Button head bolts could turn if there is not enough friction to prevent it. If they turn, torque testing would be inconclusive.

Chet Guilford
Parent - By UCSB (**) Date 12-16-2003 18:59
I agree with Chet, but would like to add that you also need to verify that the bolts are in good condition. Too many times the contractor will open a bucket of bolts and let them sit without protection. They need to be kept protected in order to maintain good lubricant. If the lubricant has worn off or there is rust on the bolts they need to be cleaned and lubricated (with lubricant supplied by the manufacturer) before installation. Dry / rusted bolts may snap before reaching full tension.

Roger
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 12-16-2003 19:01
Since a couple of years or so, a new type of washer has been developed and I've seen it advertised on Chemical Engineering Magazine.
The washer is hollow and full of yellow paint. When the required torque has been achieved, or in other words, the required tension has been put on the bolt and nut, the washer squeezes and the yellow paint is spreaded around. At this point, you know that the bolt has been correctly tightened, with no need of all of the headaches you're talking about.
Pity that those washers were not available back in my days of erector engineer ........
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-16-2003 19:23
Giovanni,
Those paint filled washers sound like they would be better than the TC bolt and a far cry better than the DTI (direct tension indicating) washers. Torque is still a factor with the TC bolt and it sounds like tension would be the only factor with the paint filled washers. With the TC bolt it is still possible to not achieve the correct tension in the bolt by not following proper snug tightening procedure or order of tensioning. I've seen those DTI washers ring 3/4" bolts off trying to compress those dimples to achieve the correct calibrated gap. I never thought much of those DTI washers from the first time we had to use them.
Thanks for sharing about those new type washers.
John Wright
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 12-16-2003 21:11
I've used both plain and paint filled DTIs (actually, it's a silicone compound). In the applications we had I can say I don't like them.
We used them on some bridge rehab work where the actual conditions varied quite a bit as far as the bolting surfaces go.

In doing the pre-installation testing, which are usually the best conditions you will see, we found hole diameter differences caused the DTIs to load unevenly. The fasteners components and DTIs met standards. We had to buy special washers (with a "special" price) that only marginally improved results.

During installation (and during testing for that matter), we were required to have an minimum and maximum number of feeler guage refusals in the spaces. We would apply torque and get almost to minimum, give it a little more, and all bumps squashed flat. And we were trying to use finesse, as best as you can with 1" bolts. The manufacturer's rep couldn't do much despite trying very diligently. It got to the point where the state inspectors would observe each joint being tightened, and accept it as long as they could see proper care was used.

In my opinion, DTIs required a lot extra of time, inspection was difficult to accomplish, and results were inconsistant. Possibly under other circumstances they may work great?

As was mentioned, TC bolts must not get dirty or the spline will snap off too soon. Don't wash them off with WD-40 or you will over-torque the bolts. They come assembled from the factory as a matched set with lubrication and have been factory calibrated. Change any of that and you get what you get.

Like anything else, there is a right way and wrong way to bolting. I prefer turn-of-nut tightening 1st and TC bolts 2nd. Those have been the most consistent and easiest to do within my experiences.

Chet Guilford
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 12-17-2003 13:51
I agree with John if you test a minimum of 3 bolt assemblies per lot and bolts are installed correctly (plies brought into contact, etc.), no further "torque testing" would be required.

My company has been toying with the idea of switching from TCs to DTIs. In theory DTIs would seem better, espescially the squirters (http://www.appliedbolting.com/). Engineers would prefer DTIs because they give tension indications, which is what they want. Inspectors and erectors probably prefer TCs because of ease of installation and the more obvious visual clue that bolt was torqued. Applied Bolting can supply a TC type bolt assembly with a squirter washer. The bolt is designed to be a single operator installed bolt using a TC gun, but the head is not designed to snap. The squirter provides the tension indication.

One area of disagreement with Roger would be with re-lubricating TC bolts or for that matter any lot of suspect bolts to be tensioned past snug tight. The only way to confirm consistent bolt performance of a lot of "dry" or "dirty" bolts would be to test each bolt. Not very practical. My correspondance with Nucor says that re-lubrication and re-certification of "dry" or "dirty" TC bolts can only be done correctly by the manufacturer. This is not economical. In our shop at least, bolts that were in a condition to need re-lubrication would be relegated to suitable for snug tight bolts only status. This would be the biggest arguement to control the condition of the bolts from the get go. Can get very expensive if you don't. I have seen countless kegs of bolts on job sites open to the ambient conditions, dry, dirty and even half filled with rain water. Anchors, door stops or really heavy paper weights is all they are really good for then!
Parent - By UCSB (**) Date 12-17-2003 15:20
THCQCI is right- in that the best way to relubricate bolts is to send them back to the manufacturer, this is what the ASTM A325 spec says to do. But--- on a large project several years ago we had Lujune (sp) rep bring the lubricant to the job and direct the cleaning and lubricating of the bolts. Yes- I would accept bolts that were relubricated on site, as long as the lubricant was supplied by the manufacturer.

Roger
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 12-23-2003 06:07
thcqci,
Sorry to impose on your good nature, but I'm curious as to what the limitations seem to be on these devices. Apparently the TC devices will indicate a minimum torque has been reached and hopefully the design of the device itself protects from overtorque. I'm a bit confused form Chet's description of feeler gauge tests which suggest to me (one of the uninitiated) it's a means of determining the maximum amount of tension the bolt is under. I can't accept my impression that the feeler is tested between the work and the washer... as the structure is subjected to load and stress that DTI will have to compress further, become thinner, and loosten the bolt... for the DTI to pass engineering tests it would seem to have to be fully compressed, wouldn't it?
Thanks,
D
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 12-23-2003 13:11
As I see it the limitations are that the TC bolts only truely indicate torque which if all the bolts in a lot are still in kegs and maintain factory lubrication, theoretically should translate to the same amount of tension in a PROPERLY installed bolt as determined by a "Skidmore". The bolt is designed to shear when the engineered torque has been reached on the nub on the end. Tension is not necessarily the primary factor. Problems arise with loss of lubrication, dirt, dust moisture, corrosion and plies that are not properly snugged first. I have seen demonstrations and been involved with bolt lot verification where a properly lubricated bolt would pull as much as 25K more tension than a dirty, dry bolt. I am QCM for a structural fabricator so I don't get to the field often (if I do it is usually not a good thing). I have been to 2 local jobsites regularly to look at various problems in the last year. One of the problems on both jobs was the erector we had hired was not keeping kegs closed (contamination due to drying lubrication, corrosion and dust). Another problem was plies were not being brought into firm contact before the bolts were tightened to full torque and ends sheared. Still another was noone was using a Skidmore to verify anything. You could look and see sheared ends and gaps between plies. Not good. Tension, which is what the SER wants, was not acheived.

For DTIs, the limitation, if you want to call it that, is that to verify that the bolt has been tensioned is that you must visit each bolt up close, at least for the percentage to be verified. TCs can be verified from a distance. The purpose of the feeler gage is to confirm lack of a gap between the DTI and the washer. The DTI does not need to be fully compressed, but is accepted if the "appropriate feeler gage is refused entry into at least half of the spaces between protrusions". This quote comes from 9.2.4 of Specification for Structural Joints Using ASTM A325 or A490 Bolts, June 23, 2000. It is available at (http://www.boltcouncil.org/download%20RCSC%20Specification.htm). Thus TCs are easier and quicker to verify if proper installation is verified. That having been said, the newer Squirter DTIs (see above link) are designed to squirt a silicon paint out as DTI protrusions are compressed, making inspections easier. Nothing changes the fact DTIs are still supposed to be verified in a Skidmore before installation.

All that said, any of the four methods of bolt installation can have people "cheat" to indicate a bolt has been tensioned. All four methods have pros and cons. It has been said in the past that some people work harder trying not to work than if they just did the job correctly. This is often true during cheating on bolt installation cheaters. Proper routine observations by an inspector is the key that proper bolt installation was performed and verified. That is why us QC people have jobs.

Hope this helps clarify my opinions.
Parent - By dee (***) Date 12-24-2003 03:51
Thcqci,
I've thanked both you and Chet, and I can see how TC nuts leave much to be desired, but I'm a still little cloudy about the DTI; please correct me if I'm wrong- those paint-filled nubs are built to yield, yes? It seems then that instead of the bolt's elasticity serving to maintain tension subsequent to some kind of load or moment being applied to the connection the [properly gauged] DTI will compress just the same as if the nut were overtightened to the point of failing the gauge test and serve to permanently lower the tension on the bolt... isnt that a design limitation to be accounted for when engineering the structure? (I'll conceed it's a consideration beyond the scope of your responsibility)
In any event, these devices apparently warrant some discretion before they're specified, don't they?

Thank you,
D
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 12-23-2003 16:13
Dee,
thcqci did a nice job summing up the information. I wanted to add that you can go to appliedbolting.com for more information.

It is true that what everyone is really concerned with in pre-tensioned or slip critical bolting is bolt tension. That is, the bolt(s) must squeeze the mating surfaces together tightly enough to resist movement. Provide high levels of friction. It is not difficult to test bolts usually in a hydraulic load cell, such as a Skidmore-Wilhelm bolt tension indicator. But during installation, there is no good way to measure tension except for load indication washers ( or Direct Tension Indicators [DTI]). Commonly, bolts are tested in the Skidmore and an installation torque is determined. Torque is easy to measure. As was pointed out though, a lot of variables can afect the tension/torque relationship.

Turn-of-the-nut tightening methods pretty much disregard torque and depend on degree of rotation to get the proper tension. Thread pitch is more stable than bolt condition is (dirt, lube, etc.)

DTIs depend on the tension flattening out the "bumps" on the washers. Specs vary a bit with these as far as how much to flatten out the washer. Some want torqueing to stop at the point where all bumps have flattened out. Others specs require that a minimum number of the spaces refuse a feeler guage. At the same time, a minimum number of spaces must accept the guages. Under some conditions, the feeler guage is 0.005" and other conditions require a 0.015" guage. It can be a very tight envelope to work with and can be very confusing to keep it all straight. However, after calibrating the washers, you have a way to measure bolt tension, not torque, and lube, dirt has a lesser effect overall.

TC (torque control) bolts are calibrated so that a spline snaps off when a predetermined torque value is reached. They have to be kept clean and only the manufacturer's lube is acceptable. A lack of lube or dirt means a higher torque is needed to achieve proper tension, but the spline snaps off too soon. Spray rusty TC bolts with WD-40, (not uncommon to find has happened) and torque requirements lower. I have seen bolts break before snapping the spline off.

Other tightening methods are similar, using wrenches that cut out at preset torque values. Or an impact wrench may be timed. All have pros and cons.

Keep in mind that all this is addressing slip critical and pre-tensioned joints. Many other joints only require the bolts be snugged because the plies bear on the bolts by design. Friction between the plies is not considered

As easy as bolting should be, it can be difficult to do, depending on the job specs. That is why I prefer turn-of -nut tightening because it is easy to teach to the crew and results are (usually) consistent. TC bolts are my 2nd choice - again, simple to teach and consistent, and one wrench tightens the nut and bolt from one side. But you have to monitor storage conditions, lube dries out, people disassemble the nut and bolt and mix them up, etc.
DTIs are OK if tightened to just flattening out. If used under the other condition I described, they can be an installation and inspection nightmare. "Calibrated" wrench methods are my last choice because of too many inconsistencies as part of everyday construction.

Sorry for beating this to death. It seemed important to me, but I hope I didn't bore everyone else with all this.

Chet Guilford

Parent - By dee (***) Date 12-24-2003 03:05
Chet and Thcqci,
Thank you both for the energy you've poured into your explanation, and the clarity with which you both described the details. I appreciate the links that were mentioned as well.
That kind of quality response can be rare in some circles.

I hope for the sake of the future that readers will take note so questions similar to mine can be directed back to this thread... I doubt it's possible to provide anything more comprehensive to cover the subject.

thank you both, again...
d
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-17-2003 15:36
Talking about DTI's, I heard of an (unnamed) erector that would take a hammer and flatten all the dimples before he would install the bolts. He said he got frustrated at trying to achieve the correct gaps by tightening. He claimed he was ringing these bolts before compressing the washers (I've seen that with my own eyes though, bolts twisted off or stripped the threads out before compression). Obviously there is some sort of problem with his methods. I have also heard of someone taking the splined ends of TC bolts and shearing them before installing. I don't know for sure but something is terribly wrong with this picture or maybe it's just my quality control coming out in me. People can get the wrong impressions by pulling these types of scharades. I guess they figure who's gonna know, if they don't get caught doing it.
John Wright
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 12-17-2003 15:52
Checking each lot of DTIs in the Skidmore should answer questions about dimples that do not compress. Not doubting you, but I have heard of snugging TCs and then knocking the ends off after installed, but how would you install them with any significant tension if you knocked the ends off first? That would seem very counterproductive to cheating.
Parent - By peter vacco (*) Date 01-01-2004 22:40
oh yeah, always knock the heads off last.. like remember..it's "pillage, rape, THEN burn.."
in truth, sometimes you will need to install the bolts, hand torque them in a repectable and decent manner, and then, since they are now torqed and held real good by the iron, whack the stubs off to indicate that they are installed.
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 12-23-2003 07:46
John,
I think part of the problem is that some people overestimate their own intelligence and do not number among their personality traits that of humility (or at least the desire to achieve it). You are correct, something is very terribly wrong with that picture, which could have serious consequences on the structure; the errector who does so should suffer serious consequences as well.

I wonder how many wrench turners realize the force behind a nut and bolt is not really torque, but the tension the bolt is under... the torque only translates to the tension through a very imprecise equation, depending on chains of friction variables, whereby the torque translates to force along the threads which translates at last into bolt tension.

Testimonials to the limitations of those DTIs not withstanding I'd be happy to believe the bolts you saw strip were substandard, improperly specified, or otherwise wrong before a verified, calibrated DTI would be the cause... which may merely demonstrate the concept that ignorance is bliss. I am blissfully ignorant of the difficulties involved with practical application of these devices in the real-world, but I'd like to know more.
...I dunno but I'd like to get my hands on a few to play around with if you (or anyone else might) know anybody who may have a few for me to evaluate with no expectation to purchase any quantity... odd left-overs or surplus perhaps I can get my hands on for cost, handling and shipping? I'd appreciate an email from anyone who might be able to offer such help.

regards,
d
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-23-2003 13:11
I'll try to look around here and see if there might be a few of these DTI washers left over from an old job somewhere. If I find a small quanity, I'll send em to you to investigate along with a few TC bolts. The DTI's (if we have any) will be the kind with dimples not the newer squish kind.
John Wright

I'll let you know if I find any and you can email me an address to send them to.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-23-2003 13:36
D,
Do you have access to a Skidmore to check the tensions you will be checking? Or do you have another method of verifying tension?
John Wright
Mine with all the attachments weights in around 105lbs. Too pricey to ship.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-23-2003 21:08
D,
I've looked high and low, there are no more DTI washers in our shop that I can find, Sorry.
Would you care for some TC bolts?
John Wright
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 12-28-2003 19:22
JW,
Thanks; check your email
D
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-29-2003 01:30
Happy Holidays there Dee!,
I received your email and will send out a few TC bolts when I get back to work. Look for them "next year". :)
John Wright
Parent - By dee (***) Date 12-29-2003 06:36
JW
Much appreciated. Have a happy healthy & prosperous New Year!
D
Parent - - By Niekie3 (***) Date 12-22-2003 20:48
Hi Chet

It was interesting to see what your experience has been with DTI's and TC's. I was wondering if you, or anybody else on the board, has experience with other torque indicating devices in the structural steel industry. Are there other alternatives? What sort of cost premium would people be prepared to pay to get something that reliably and easily indicated that the required bolt tension has been achieved?

I am more involved in the pressure vessel industry, so I am not quite so up to speed with the economics driving the structural steel industry.

I ask this question, because a couple of us are busy developing an alternative bolt load indicating device, which I believe has many advantages. It will however be somewhat costly compared to a DTI washer. I was wondering if it would find a potential market in the structural steel industry.

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Fabristruct Solutions
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-22-2003 21:09
Neikie,
I'm all for new alternatives, as long as they accomplish the same thing and passify the EOR. Let us know how your new venture turns out.
John Wright
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 12-23-2003 18:05
Niekie,
Sorry I didn't see your post earlier. Where this topic is getting lengthy, I scanned down and didn't notice it.
I don't know if the post I addressed to Dee answers any of this for you.

As I mentioned before, and speaking in my opinion, I prefer turn-of-nut tightening. A 1/3 of a turn (or whatever is specified) from snug tight is the same regardless of the torque it requires to achieve it. Bolts are checked in a Skidmore device to verify that the minimum bolt tension is achieved without over stressing prior to installation. It's easy to train for, and, if witness marks are used, easy to inspect.

TC bolts are my 2nd choice. Again, they're easy to train for and use. However, they are more sensitive to proper storage due to lube drying out, or dirt, damage, and etc. Bolts that are too long could be used and the nut will run up to the shank, the spline shears off and the joint would not be tight enough. Over zealous workers might spray them with oil and then the calibration is null and void.

DTI applications, where the bumps must all flatten are pretty easy. Especially with the "squirter" DTIs. However, many of our DOT require us to measure all around the spaces with feeler gauges, looking for a minimum number of refusals and minimum number of acceptances of the feeler guages. Also, many washers are made with maximum size holes that can overlap the DTI bumps, meaning some bumps have a space under them. DTIs are the most confusing to train for and can be very time consuming to inspect.

Our most preferred method for structural steel is to ship clips and bolts loose and let the field take care of it. It works well within our own company but that doesn't always fly with other erectors.

I can't tell you about other fasteners. What I mentioned are the most common I have dealt with.

As far as costs, we all know that cheaper initial costs are not always the answer. I would say, if a fastener is easy to use and is consistent in bolt tension results, it could be very marketable. Not to cause discouragement, but I have to tell you that the vast majority of bolts used in structural steel are only required to be snug tight- no tension requirements at all. But there are many applications in the bridge industry that require tensioning and you might want to look at that.

Chet
Parent - - By Niekie3 (***) Date 12-23-2003 19:40
Hi Chet

Thanks for your nice and complete answer.

You state that you prefer the turn-of-nut method to tightening the bolts correctly. I agree that in theory this would be a good method, but I believe than in practice there could be a number of problems. My first problem is that the "reference" point from which the tightening is taken, is the "snug tight" position. I believe that this will vary from person to person, and also from joint to joint.

No two plates being bolted together are perfectly flat. Therefore, once "snug tight", a 1/2 turn (or whatever) will result firstly in some of the "tensioning turn" going into streightening the plate and only after this will the real bolt tensioning begin. (Keeping in mind that the critical issue is the friction between the plates.) This will be totally missed by the turn-of-nut method. While the other methods will also be influenced by it, it will still have a tensioning force that is in the right ball-park.

Another problem is that unless the inspector actually witnesses the bolt tensioning procedure, there is no real way to do "spot checks" afterwards. If I wanted to just "get on with the job" without all the hassle, I would just make the required marks on the nut and bolt after I have finished tightening it.

Do you believe the above-mentioned concerns are valid, or am I missing something?

Another concern that I have, which may be a bigger issue in the pressure equipment industry than the structural steel industry, (or maybe not) is that a joint with multiple bolts will tend to have the bolts that were initially bolted tight first, loose tension as the other bolts are tightened. So, if you were merely relying on the shearing off or compression of a dimple to tell you that the bolt has been tensioned adequately, they could be totally incorrect. Potentially you could have a washer that has flattened dimples (or squirted gel) that is totally loose after all the other bolts have been tightened. Do you believe that this is also a valid concern in the structural steel industry?

Just on a lighter note: I have had a fitter explain how he knows when the bolts have been tensioned correctly. He turns it till he "just feels" the threads starting to strip. Then he gives it a 1/4 turn back.

Thanks again for the info.

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Fabristruct Solutions
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 12-23-2003 21:17
Hi Niekie,

You bring up good points but as with anything there is a procedure to follow. This might explain further.
When bolting per AISC and RCSC specs (other than snug-tight), we almost always have to do a pre-installation verification test. That involves taking 3 bolts, nuts, washers for each size length, lot number and in combinations as the bolts will be installed.

For turn-of-the-nut methods, we first snug tighten the bolts in a Skidmore. Snug tight is defined in the RCSC as "the tightness that is attained by a few impacts of an impact wrench or the full effort of an ironworker using an ordinary spud wrench to bring the plies into firm contact." I know this sounds subjective but another definition is the tightness required to attain approximately 10% of the minimum required bolt tension. In reality, the spud wrench approach is surprisingly consistent, according to the testing I have been involved with.
Granted, there is always an arm wrestler that tries to break bolts by brute force. But in the end, it doesn't seem to make much difference.
The key is that all plies be brought into firm contact to start from. As we approach the minimum required tension, initial tension values seem to "even out" so that there is a relatively small variation.

From snug tight, we turn the nut an additional amount. Usually 1/3 turn but it varies according to the ratio of bolt length and diameter, sometimes 1/2 or 2/3 of a turn. The Skidmore readings should then be at or above 105% of minimum required bolt tension (41 kips for a 7/8"dia A325 bolt).

At the same time, we record the torque value required to achieve the 1/3 turn, to be used for the inspection torque value later on. Of course accurate inspection depends on the bolts being in the same condition as tested.

Also, we may perform rotational capacity tests, or pay the supplier to do them, where the bolt is over rotated (2X the 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3 turn). During the 2X rotation, the tension may not be less than 1.15 of the req'd minimum at any point.
And the torque must not exceed a value computed as a ratio of measured tension X bolt diameter when going from snug tight to 105% of minimum.

Further, the bolts are inspected for necking down and thread failure after the 2X rotation.
All that is to verify the bolts attain 105 % minimum tension, without undue values of torque, and have sufficient ductility to compensate for reasonable overtightening, without significant 'necking down'.

During installation, after snug tight condition is attained, we mark the bolt, the nut, and the joint so we know starting and final position of the fastener. Inspection is simply to compare the marks to verify the nut was turned 2 flats for 1/3 turn. (The bolt head is held with a wrench to prevent turning while tightening.)
Alternatively, all we have to do is mark our socket at 120, or 180 degrees, line up the socket mark with a bit of spatter, dent, or make a chalk mark, and verify rotation by watching the wrench. Of course that means the inspector has to be there. Overall, the whole process is simple and fast to do.

According to the RCSC specs, if a bolt loosens during tightening procedures, all you have to do is re-establish snug tight condition and rotate the nut again. It is not considered re-using the bolt unless it is first loosened deliberately. Of course, if a number of bolts loosen in the process, then it is wise to recheck that all plies were brought together before proceeding.

It is possible the someone could 'get on with the job' but that can happen with anything. Although, if deemed necessary to do so, then applying inspection torque could be done as a check, but should be done very soon after tightening. The torque needed to turn a tightened bolt will change somewhat as rusting happens.

Chet Guilford
Parent - - By Niekie3 (***) Date 12-24-2003 06:42
Hi Chet

Thanks for your reply and info. I can see how following the correct procedures can help to eliminate much of the problems. All this does however add to the complexity of the problem, and suggests that possibly people will be prepared to pay for a simpler procedure to both implement and verify.

Obviously this all depends on the criticallity of the joint, and the consequences of failure. (Risk involved)

In the petrochemical industry we have the problem of tightening the flanges on pressure vessels correctly. If you over-tighten the bolts, you can dammage the flanges and gaskets. If you under tighten, you could get leaks. Mostly people just "slog" the bolts to "h_ll and gone", and hope that it does not leak. If it leaks, they tighten it some more! So you can see that we also have our share of problems.

Thanks again for the reply.

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Fabristruct Solutions
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 12-25-2003 06:58
A method used by high performance engine builders is to measure the length of the bolt, then tighten it until it stretches enough to load it to near its yield point. This is superior to torque plus turn since it isn't fooled if the material in compression crushes and doesn't depend on predictable coefficient of friction as torque alone does. The disadvantage is that you need access to both ends of the bolt so in an engine you are pretty much limited to connecting rod bolts. Flange bolts seem like an almost ideal application.
Bill
Parent - - By vonash (**) Date 12-29-2003 02:40
You are talking about two different bolting applications; structural steel bolting vs pressure vessels. A325/490 bolts are designed to be tightened per the research council recommendations. Snug tight tensioning for the pressure vessel industry does not apply to structural bolting, they are in no way related.
The answer to jtmiller's question is: After the pre-testing of the bolts ( per the research council's recommendations) further testing is not required unless there is a change in parameters such as equipment,
materials, personnel etc. Some discussion has been focused on whether daily pre-testing is required; other than this, torque wrench verification is not recommended.
Hope this helps,
Vonash
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 12-29-2003 07:50
Vonash,
Your remarks refocus attention back to the original question so well I'm a bit ashamed to continue my quest for an answer to a previous question.
Your sentiment deserves to be the last word.

As much as most of us have been guilty of some digress from the original topic (there's been more on the side-track than pressure vessels- I believe this has digressed into a discussion about verification of bolt tension in general) I hope I will be forgiven, and perhaps you can help with my problem.
I'm trying to understand how sandwiching an [easily] compressable layer (a "stale marshmallow" such as a DTI washer with partially compressed nubs) into a critical structural connection makes engineering sense... perhaps the question is best posed to the engineers who specify them... eg:I dont know the pressure/nub compression curve and I'm presuming it to be strictly flat, but I hope it's accounted for in calculating actual service performance of the completed structure.

I sincerely hope my (and others') interest in the various appendant topics we're pursuing won't hide the information jtmiller needs.
Holiday Regards,
d
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 01-06-2004 13:17
Been out of the office through holidays so have not followed thread. Hope everyones holidays were good. Lots of good insight above to chew on. Although I have worked in other fields doing NDE, structural steel is where must of my experience lies so that is from where I form most of my opinions. Not to beat a dead horse, but let me enter my last 2 cents on this topic.

I have very limited experience using DTIs so cannot speak authoritatively about the concerns I see listed above. Most of my above opinions about DTIs are from witnessing presentations, reading vendor literature and considering the ramifications. I see some valid concerns listed above and some of the same thoughts have crossed my mind.

It goes without saying, if all 4 methods were installed correctly, all would have bolts installed acceptably. As in all other disciplines, competent, well trained personnel make the difference. That having been said, my preference for installing bolts would be: TCs, DTIs (squirters), turn-of-the-nut, DTIs (nonsquirters), calibrated torque wrench. These opinions are based upon what I perceive the combination of ease of training of personel to install, problems associated with installation, consistency of results and ease of verification combined with the engineers desire to have a properly tensioned bolt. These opinions are further based upon my background with maintenancing, rebuilding, verifying and/or calibrating Skidmores and torque wrenches. I know Skidmores from the inside out and have my opinions as to the reliability of them based upon their state of disrepair. Likewise, proper use of and repeatability of various brands and styles of torque wrenches does not give me much confidence in them, ranking them lowest.

Similar to Chet above, we install shop bolts when they only call to be snug tight. When TCs are to be used (our most frequently used erector's preference), we install a couple of shop bolts into clips and ship TCs to the jobsite in kegs, making the erector responsible for care of bolts and correct installation.

I have heard of verifying bolt tension using ultrasonics also, but have no experience and have not tdone any research on that method for awhile. Does anyone else have any knowledge of using ultrasonics to determine tension?

I think RCSC should get in touch with Niekie's fitter friend to develop another "new" method to install bolts. We've all met one or two of these guys, haven't we?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-06-2004 14:44
I might be way off base, but I thought there were ways to use Ultrasonics to check total bolt length(like thickness gaging), which could determine the amount of stretch that has occurred in a particular bolt after pretensioning.
Is this what you had in mind?
John Wright
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 01-06-2004 15:23
Might be. Been many a year since I remember seeing the application advertised.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-06-2004 15:28
I think they use this in engine building for race applications, checking tension in rod bolts, main brg bolts, head bolts, etc....
John Wright
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-06-2004 15:47
Here's a link for an ultrasonic bolt meter

http://www.norbar.com/USAcompinfo.htm

John Wright
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Twist-off-type bolts

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