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- - By CHEVYTOWN13 (**) Date 12-31-2003 19:20
What is the diff between a recessed/flush gas nozzle?

Is there a purpose to this or just a preference?

Pop a cork tonight!

RM
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-31-2003 23:34
Chevy,

Do you mean flush or recessed contact tips on a MIG?

If yes, than their is a difference
Parent - - By CHEVYTOWN13 (**) Date 01-01-2004 00:06
Sup L.

Yes, that is what I meant bro.

I'll see if I can find it on the net...

Thanks hometown and happy new year.

RM
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 01-01-2004 05:24
The short answer is;

GMAW mild steel, CO2 or 75/25; for short circuiting transfer, the tip should be even with the tip (Some say up to 1/8 inch stickout) and a 3/8 inch standoff distance. For spray transfer mode recess the tip 3/8 to 1/2 inch.
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 01-02-2004 07:29
Lawrence,
The answers I've ever gotten have usually been rather "diplomatic" and the reasoning behind the rule was avoided or unclear. For the record, I can get various different nozzles but only one length contact tip.

The best I can tell the issue sems to be spatter residue? Shortening the nozzle behind the contact tip (which pulls it farther from the weld) seems to keep the inside of the nozzle cleaner I think. I can't really find any difference in the weld itself except where accessability is affected by the nozzle geometry and becomes the real issue. I hope you or others will correct any misimpression I have. I've got a gut feeling there are issues that have to do with gun design, such as heat, and maybe gas consumption, more than arc physics.

Might be nice to see a Journal article on shield characteristics and control (rather than chemistry). Not much ever seems to be said about it- I've taken that to indicate it's level of importance.

There must be worse things than to start a new year way-wrong, but I cant think of any at the moment.

Regards,
D
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-02-2004 13:09
D,
Some of those nozzles are straight and some are tapered too. This seems to effect the amount of gas flow required. The tapered ones seem to require less gas (cfh) than the straight one's do. I guess due to the (necking down) taper, it may increase the velocity of the gas exiting the nozzle?
John Wright
Parent - By dee (***) Date 01-02-2004 18:05
John,
I dunno, but I own all that Miller makes to fit my gun and Ive been observing the differences
D
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 01-02-2004 16:27
Dee,

I'm busted! I was avoiding it too. However, you busted me so politely that I guess I owe you an effort.

Mig is not my strongest area but its one that has been thrust upon me recently, I also like whistles and bells (it' a weakness) which are common to mig power sources, so the last semester has been a big learning/teaching experience for me.

I'll try to be clear. The resistance built in the wire between the contact tip and the arc (stickout) is critical to clean operation in short circuit and spray transfer modes. I’ll talk more about the hands on stuff (effects) for short circuit and leave to arc physics to another poster. (Hopefully the mighty Submariner)

In short circuiting transfer mode, 100% CO2 is most active and less forgiving so it makes the best example of the effects we are discussing, however the effect is similar with mixes. As the length of the wire "stickout" increases the current (amperage) decreases whilst the voltage remains constant, this is what one ought to expect from a "constant voltage" power source. So if a procedure is set with the assumption that the nozzel to contact tip distance is, let’s say even, and you were to recess the tip ½ inch into the cup you would loose amperage. For instance if your data sheet suggested 150 inches per minute or 95 Amps with that even tip/nozzel configuration and you put the thing back ½ inch, your current output to the work could drop as much as 20 amps (this is pretty significant.) In MIG in either transfer mode or Flux-cored, consistency is real important. The above scenario might not make much of a difference in bead profile but it will effect side wall fusion and penetration, cause cold laps and blow a guided bend exam. Spatter problems are more often related to improper arc voltage settings.

In short circuiting transfer mode in wire diameters up to 0.045 the close tip/nozzel setup should not present an overheat, spatter or melted tip condition if the arc voltage is set properly. (Process control is everything when looking for MIG consistency)

For mild steel short circuit I prefer the single piece copper cups and for spray transfer and flux cored I like the two piece heavy duty Nozzel.

BTW, there are different sized contact tips, however you can also just keep dressing old ones down until they are significantly shorter and then put them to use for spray.

We can talk about spray and fluxcore later if you want but this is about enough for one post.
Parent - By dee (***) Date 01-03-2004 05:12
Lawrence,
You were quite clear and in your typical good form to start off the new year. I appreciate your fine effort.

I guess "spatter-free" actually is a bit subjective... I'll try to quantify:
I do get some spatter beads (round, like tiny ball bearings) when I weld. Unlike hot or oblong spatter I've seen from grossly misadjusted power supplies, these can usually be brushed away with a single wipe of my gloved hand. At the end of the day (probably translates to several good hours in a real high production shop) a tap or two of the nozzle will release a little bit of a spatter residue from the inside of the nozzle, and I take the opportunity to dust off and generally clean and inspect everything under the nozzle as well just for good form. I find a cheap 1 inch paintbrush (or my gloved fingers when I'm lazy) with half-length bristles usually suffices.

Compared to problems I've seen and heard other guys dealing with I have the impression I've achieved a functional level of mediocrity. When I describe my experience with spatter it's not dealing with anti-spatter sprays, creams, gells, chisels, grinders, or special vocabularies we use when ladies aren't around. I bought my first can of anti spatter spray before I ever came up on the board and it's still quite full. Sometimes I shoot a bit inside the nozzle (I think so I can get rid of it someday) but unless I really overheat the torch it seems unnecessary to reapply. It seems the antispatter itself causes the spatter I described to cling to the moist nozzle parts if I use too much of it.

Every job has a tit or two that adheres a bit better than I'd like (usually near the start of the bead) but scrapeing the side of a hammer along the surface generally knocks the toughest of them off very easily.
Fact is, my weld technique is a little sloppy (I guess I've been busted too!) and I was under the imprssion the human element was the culprit. I'd like t pose a serious question; please dont take it rtrtorically or as a wisecrack... how clean can you reasonably expect a manual (GMAW) short arc weld to be in the real world?

I'd really like to see some kind of research article about nozzle design and gas flow characteristics published in the Journal sometime.

Thanks & regards
D
Parent - - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 01-02-2004 18:05
the flush tips are supposed to be for MIG welding, the recessed tips are supposed to be for dual shielded flux core welding. the reasoning is this: flux core welding is supposed to have a 3/4" stickout as opposed to the 1/2" stickout of MIG welding. in order to get that 3/4" stickout and still get sufficient gas coverage you recess the contact tip. try it out sometime. if you have a flush tip and try to give a 3/4" stickout w/ dual shielded flux core your chances of porosity are almost guaranteed.
Parent - By dee (***) Date 01-03-2004 06:30
Sounds logical; Thanks!
Regards
d
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