need a shop heater

Date 01-07-2004 17:32

Artgirl,
I don't suppose you have any firewood around like we do here in central Maine? Not being familiar with West Texas I always imagined there weren't a lot of trees there. If you do have firewood available, you could do like a lot of folks do for their garages. That is make a wood stove out of two 55 gallon drums. They can be fashioned pretty quickly and will last a couple of seasons.

Otherwise, the unvented propane heaters that you mount on the wall should work well for you. Probably two 30,000 BTU units on opposite sides of the building would be enough to get you through the worst of it, and you can regulate the output on most of them. Cost for mine a couple of years ago was ~ $150 each.

Another option would be propane fired space heaters (we call them salamanders). You could get the kerosene burning kind but I don't like the combustion fumes with those. With propane heaters, the main combustion byproducts are carbon dioxide and water vapor.
Keep in mind that you must be sure to have enough air coming into the building for fuel combustion or else you will fill the building with carbon monoxide. It doesn't take a lot of air opening, just open a window few inches. Just read the instructions and you'll be OK.

Also keep in mind that anything that burns fuel can ignite flammable vapors. Best to bring everything up to temperature and then shut off the heaters if you're going to be painting inside. I'd hate to hear that you turned into a roman candle.

Looking forward to viewing your project pictures.

Chet Guilford

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-07-2004 17:45

I really didn't have any idea on what sort of budget you could work towards, but I was gonna suggest somethings like Chet mentioned. I was in a building recently that was about the same size you are talking about and it had one propane heater mounted about 8 feet up or so and used an internal fan to force hot air down to the floor. It seemed to work OK in that shop, with the door opening and closing often, I could work without my jacket. It had a bulk tank outside and a single line running to the heater inside. Very simple and seemed to meet their needs. I don't know what BTU/hr that unit produced, so I can't help with sizing. If your budget is around $2000 or so, you could install a heat pump and get the benefit of A/C in the Summer heat too. If you know someone to install at cost plus labor you maybe even get it done cheaper.
Good Luck, and watch out like Chet said about the spraying activities around open flame heaters.
John Wright

By artgirl (*)

Date 01-07-2004 18:32

Thanks guys! No we don't have much firewood in West Tex. It is a lot of work to get enough wood to burn in the stove inside my house. I think I will go with the portable space heater for low cost and ease of installation. But I really like the idea of a heat pump for later when I have more cash. I went to work at 3:00 am all last summer because of the heat. Any cooling would be heaven. Is it safe to air condition a welding shop? How much air do you have to move? Do you have to put in a separate roof vent?
I am the only one welding in my shop. I spend more time cutting and bending with a with a rosebud than actually welding. And right now I do all patina and lacqering outside. I plan to build another shop with a spray room when I have the cash.
Bettye Turner (Artgirl)

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-07-2004 18:45

I forgot to mention, I had used a kerosene readyheater (looks like a jet engine, sitting ontop of a fuel tank) and heated the shop, forgot to wipe down the part to be painted and it fish-eyed from the kerosene residue. That was a mess, so learn from my mistake and if you use a readyheater that works on kerosene, remember what happened to me.
John Wright

By TimGary (****)

Date 01-07-2004 19:36

Hi Artgirl,

Consider this for a cheap way out... Make your own radiant heater for a few bucks worth of scrap and about 30 minutes of your time.
Weld together, end to end, 3 or 4 pieces of pipe or tubing, around 18" long. Arrange them so that the pieces are 90 derees from each other but make one contious tube. 4" material works best, the thicker the better. Mount them to a base plate capable of holding the whole assembly straght up in the air and so that it will not easily tip over. Now cut a hole in the bottom tube, right next to the base plate, about 3" diameter. Now you light your rosebud torch and insert it into the hole, with the flame going up the center of the tube.
As the heat from the rosebud travels toward the opposite end of the crooked tube you've made, the elbows trap a lot of the heat and the whole assembly is a radiant heater.
This may not be an efficient way to heat the whole shop, but if you place it a few feet from where your working, it'll do just fine.

Good luck!
Tim

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 01-07-2004 20:25

I've used the same basic idea years ago. We all would run rosebuds under steel tables, in special "heat sinks" of steel, and in empty trash barrels. The shop had no heat, and when steel was coming in one end and being loaded out on the other, the wind would whistle through the place. None of our set-ups were ever "sanctioned" by management and they had to enforce some new rules after one guy nearly blew his head off.
(true story coming up, names withheld to protect the incompetent)

The guy had a hole in the bottom of a 55 gal drum, put a rosebud in the hole, and put a plate over the top of it. It did throw quite a bit of heat.
Seems that he was feeling extra "efficient" one evening and shut off the torch at the supply valves instead of at the torch. He didn't want to bend down to get it.
The next morning, he turned the supply valves back on and went chatting for a few minutes while he got his hard hat on and tool box opened. He then pulled the torch out, lit it, and stuck it back in the hole. The resulting explosion blew the plate past his face, launched his hard hat somewhere, burned off all his facial hair, and shook the dust off the rafters in the entire building. I observed him staggering towards the men's room, babbling incoherently. No, wait! He did that every morning for the first 2 hours! But this time he really DID need to use the facilities.
Thankfully, he wasn't hurt.
Just be careful, to anyone who tries the same things.

Chet

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-07-2004 21:56

I remember seeing dust flying off the crane rails and rafters myself from those neat heat tubes and other pranks on your buddies. We had guys using them for preheating thick base plates and they were sometimes used as an occassional hand warmer. I'm glad ya'll reminded me of those good ole' days. Fire crackers or zip lock sandwhich bags filled up with gas from the torch laying inside your buddie's tubing that he's getting ready to cut to length with the torch:)
John Wright

By TimGary (****)

Date 01-08-2004 01:59

Hi John,
Yeah, those are fun tricks...
Last week a guy put grease inside of my work gloves...
The next day, "somebody" shoved a firecracker up the nozzle of his mig gun during lunch time...

Tim :)

By - Date 01-08-2004 07:01

Check your local propane supply and if you are heating often then I would go with a 100# tank and a mr.heater setup,the tank usually cost around a hundred dollars depending where bought and about 35-40 dollars to fill,it's not like acetylene where you exchange the tank,so you gotta keep the same one you bought so watch out for scratches and dents on it.I keep my 100# tank in the shop for cutting and heating as well,I am from texas too but from the southern part.There are huge amounts of mesquite on my place where I live.By the Way which part of west texas?...Remember propane is always cheaper too cut with if you're doing alot of it.Thats why I use it.I use a little bbq tank from like a grill and also like I said I have a 100# propane tank that I use but I leave the small one in my cart because the 100# tank is way too big.I still don't see why it's so cold in a insulated shed unless you have the doors open.Oh yeah that's right,You need ventilation,I do all my cutting and welding on the outside because neither you weld or cut you are going to damage your slab and it will soon crack,but go with the mr.heater set up at the Propane supply,I know a lot of guys who use even small bottles of propane to heat their shops,like manufacturing shops and such.

By the Way speaking of stoves I get a lot of old heavy cast iron brake drums off of rigs that I work on,I even made me a wood stove out of one and if You want plans I have them if I get time to make them.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-08-2004 12:16

Tim,
Hate the grease in the glove trick. When ever one of the welders give me a hard time, they seem to find UT couplant all over the handle of their mig pliers. I don't know who would do such a thing, but I love to walk by and hear them holler, "Yuk!, I've been slimed!". :)
John Wright

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-08-2004 12:27

Artgirl,
I was looking over some of my old Welding Journals lastnight and thought about you. There was an article in the Nov/2003 Journal that covered "Artistic Creativity Expressed through Welding". The article is by Ross Hancock on page 42-45.
John Wright

By artgirl (*)

Date 01-08-2004 19:03

Oxyfuelwelder- I'm in Miles, about 20 NE of San Angelo. I went to the propane shop and bought a Mr. Double Heater yesterday. I went with the 20# tank because I could steal one from the bar-b-que pit for a back up if I need it. There is lots of mesquite, and I cut it for the house, but I would rather not spend the day out cutting wood for the shop and my husband is an inside kind of guy. I have never heard of running a rosebud off a propane tank. Does it produce enough heat? I bend large pieces of 14 gauge for my sculpture.

John Wright- How can I get a back copy? I would love to see the article. I keep having other welders tell me they don't see any one else doing the kind of metal work I do. I know I am creative, but I don't think I am that innovative because I have less than two years experience welding. So I am always curious to see what some one else has done. And I am so flattered that you thought of me! : )
Artgirl (Bettye Turner)

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-08-2004 20:34

Artgirl,
I emailed you the article. I tried to use the WJ's article finder but I guess I'm too stupid to figure it out. I could only get it to go from 1922 thru 2002.
Hope what I sent is legible.
John Wright

By EVWELDER (**)

Date 01-08-2004 20:51

Just wanted to say hello neighbor from Midland TX.

By artgirl (*)

Date 01-09-2004 00:46

John Wright-
Thanks so much for the effort. The pages were not clear enough to read, but the pictures were clear enough to spark my interest. I'll see if I can get them to sell me a back issue.

Thanks so much for the heater tips. I worked in comfort this morning! It has been cold enough in the mornings that my nose runs constantly (or maybe that's from the 2 cotton gins nearby running 24/7) and my fingers are stiff. I really like working very early in the morning as its my most creative time, and now I can do it comfortably!

Hey there in Midland! I must sound like a weanie to those hearty souls in the north. But 20 degrees with a 30 mph wind is too much for me!

Artgirl

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-09-2004 12:12

I wouldn't dare call someone a weenie for saying they are cold (or hot). Personally, I think it's all in what you get used to. It's been 60 - 65 here lately and in a few hours that day the temp started dropping and was only 30 then it continued to drop and it was 17 when I woke up then next morning. Now, here in Virginia, we get in the teens pretty often and normally it is expected, but this time after having several weeks of nice weather, the teens feel COLD! It actually warmed up lastnight and snowed. Farther up North and to the Northwest they have seen single digits and some places are below zero quite a bit. When it's that cold here, it's miserable. Back in 1990 at Christmas, I visited some friends in Williston, North Dakota and the actual temp dropped to -38 with the wind gusting there were wind chills -50 or more. It warmed up to zero and felt deceivingly warm riding the snowmobiles. So I think it's all in what you get used to, right? Glad to hear you are working comfortably. :)
Take care,
John Wright

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-09-2004 17:53

Artgirl,
I found the article another way,
here's the link....http://www.aws.org/wj/nov03/feature2.html#Fields
Enjoy,
John Wright

By JTMcC

Date 01-09-2004 18:51

Those people that recommend heating with acytelene, obviously are not the ones paying for the acytelene.

JTMcC, heating with propane.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-09-2004 19:11

Hi JTMcC,
When the boss comes around at 9:00am and cuts all the heat off in the shop and says "it's 75F in Fla. (snickering the whole time), think warm thoughts"(Grrrrr!). We will put our creative minds to work keeping warm when it's really cold, but we did it with Oxy/MAPP.
John Wright :)

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 01-10-2004 18:07

You are absolutely right! I wasn't paying for the fuel when we would fabricate make shift heaters. Oxy-acetylene, or any oxy-fuel for that matter, is not a cost effective way to provide heat in a building. Not to mention, as I posted earlier, things can explode if one is not careful.

All I can say is that John's response is accurate. Most shops aren't heated and people become inventive during cold snaps. When the mag-drill coolant freezes on the concrete floor, and your fingers go numb because you can't hold a square & soapstone with heavy gloves, then you might say it's cold. Although it isn't as bad as what the people who work outdoors go through.

Chet Guilford

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 01-10-2004 04:20

If you have a way to get used oil, either lubricating or cooking oil apparently works, try putting "waste oil heater" into Google. I got lots of hits, both plans to build your own and sellers of complete units. I have no personal experience with these so this is not a recommendation. The price of the fuel sounds good though.

All together now chant- daffodils daffodils daffodils...

Bill

By insp76

Date 01-11-2004 00:50

Art girl , you mentioned that you use your torch and bender mostly and a little welding. Well when your not using your welding machine it can be used for heat. Just coil up like a spring, about a 6 foot piece of # 9 wire or or some filler wire that`s tacked together and clamp it in the rod holder on your grounded work table at about 75 amps, and there you go, you have an electric heater. You can even get fancy by blowing a fan across the coil to move that heat around. I kept myself warm many of cold nights up in the pipe racks like that. "A welder can always figure out a way to stay warm". No matter how you try to stay warm, be careful. Have a good one!

By 357max

Date 01-14-2004 04:38

Grainger sells a diesel heater with piping to exhaust through the roof. It is called a hard hat heater. Looks like a wash tub in a wire rod stand with a cover with stove pipe on top. Fill it with diesel fuel and light it with a torch and about 30 minutes it is burning so clean you don't smell diesel. It burns a gallon of fuel per hour when it is burning full out. Throttle the damper and consumption goes down. It works, 30 degrees below zero in a 50 X 100 quonset not insulated was made comfortable enough to weld in wearing just insulated coveralls. I believe the temp was about 25 to 30 above zero. Smaller space it should heat up very nicely. The post about used motor and cooking oil may be a possibility in this heater. I'll have to try it.

By bzzzzzzzzzz (**)

Date 01-14-2004 12:46

I'd check the duty cycle and amp draw before shorting out a welder for a heat source. If it's still on warranty, won't be after this type of application. I'd get an electric heater before trying this. I suppose if you absolutely ,must play Mcguiver for a day you could heat this way. Electric heat is the most expensive per btu of all heat sources.

By dee

Date 01-14-2004 16:29

Hello, Buzzzz!
Late as it is, I hope you will have a warm and happy new year.

For some reason images of heating a rock with a ray-gun come to mind here at this point, but for the record, the more resistance & longer the conductor element is the less heat, Amperage, and load on the welder. As ambient temperature decreases it's ability to cool the [over]heating parts of the power supply increases... this would have the same effect as raising the duty cycle of the unit, as heat dissipation tends to be the issue there.

Recognizing your good advice for what it is, I'm trying to put it into a realistic (albeit theoretical) perspective and point out it can be done safely- it's precisely the way my electric socks work- and underscore the importance of your good observation about the hazard of equipment damage... "dont try this trick at home" never stopped everyone from trying desperate (if not crazy) stunts, but the future of their welder depends on the engineering.

On a different note, I have experience with those propane heaters Artgirl has bought, and I know the (smaller) single unit will heat a linerless "GP small" tent hot enough to be comfortable in only underwear (excepting drafts around your feet) with outdoor temps as low as 15-20F... way too hot for zipping yourself into a GI issue sleeping bag. It will do even better if you install a tent liner.

I'm apprehensive about radiant heaters in general because they can get objects much hotter than the ambient temp in the room (thats how they work until the hot objects begin to cause some convection)... bottom line is you have to be carefull about what they're aimed at or they can cause damage; often when it's least expected.

Have a care... use some discretion with any space heater, and bear in mind the above advice comes from a guy who used to use capacitors as pyrotechnic devices when he was a kid.

Regards,
d

By bzzzzzzzzzz (**)

Date 01-14-2004 17:15

I have even less use for the "ventless" propane heaters. If I was to heat ventless, I'd use a kerosene unit. Too much chance for the propane to start burning incomplete. The odor is a real pain on start-up/shut-down with kerosene though. In MI right now we're in the middle of a cold snap. I'll just wait until the garage temp. is more moderate. I do have a small heated shop, but it's too small and enclosed to weld in. As for the welder heater, I suppose one could adjust the power output, but there are many who would just rig it and go with no regard to amperage or anything. Some would even leave them unattended while they sleep. So what's with the cap. and pryro? I used my model train transformer to "detonate" the firecrackers we made as kids. My buddies thought it too cool to electrically ignite the firecrckers we made. Just used a single filiment of stranded copper wire short circuited. Man, we could bury them, dunk them in water and everthing. My mother was quite nervous when I was younger.

By artgirl (*)

Date 01-15-2004 15:46

You guys are so inventive! Most of your suggestions just scare me, and the rest use up the gas that I have to pay for and haul home from town by myself! The Mr. Double Heater I bought gets the temp in the shop up to about 40 degrees pretty quickly and I can move it easily. I have thre life sized horse sculptures and one big dog sculpture in the shop as well as the tables and equipment so space and mobilty are important. Thanks for the help and for the fun stories. It makes me miss the comradery of welding school!

Artgirl (Bettye)

By dee

Date 01-15-2004 18:54

Bettye,
I translate your response as "If you could harness all the hot air we've expended here you wouldn't need the Mr Heater"
...that's true!

Regards,
d

By dee

Date 01-15-2004 19:11

Bzzzz
As for sleeping with the heat unattended, it's allways a bad idea but there's people suing over homeless relatives getting killed from sleeping in a dumpster while it was emptied... whenever the sun comes up in the east there's somebody beneath it who will do something stupid.
Flashbulbs made a more robust and dependable detonator for my purposes, but they've pretty much become extinct. I'm not sure it's discreet to discuss how we've both made our mothers prematurely grey, but if you grossly overload some caps they will pop.

Regards,
d

By DOUBLE D Date 01-18-2004 19:40

ART GIRL,
I would agree with bill here on the waste oil heaters they are very clean burning and produce a lot of btu's with minimal amounts of fuel. Very safe for your shop, Also as a suggestion search for the hot shot waste oil heater they are made by a company in Janesville WI. Small company with a big reputation in the waste oil burning bus. You Can even burn your used motor oil in them, Good reason to do your own oil changes.
Double D