Rewiring a hand pendant remote control

Date 01-15-2004 05:43

The 14 pin controls are wired (clocked) the same between the Miller and Thermal Arc.
That said, any Miller 14 pin remote will work with your T/A, if it has a 14 pin plug / receptacle.

You say that you have only an 8 pin remote plug on your 300GTSW. That is entirely possible. Some came with 14 pin recep's.
You cannot remove the wires from the plug ( 8 or 14 pin ) without special tooling.

The best remedy-check your schematic in your operators manual.
You should be able to rewire this control without much problem.

I am away from the shop tonite, so I don't have access to a schematic for your particular machine.
I will dig out a manual and post here again in the next few days as to what color wires go where.

Your 8 pin plug is mfg. by AMP ( not Amphenol ) and can be sourced from Newark Electronics, Allied Electronics, Mouser Electronics and others. They all have websites. Look at the numbers on the screwnut face for reference.

Keep in mind as well that CK has torch mounted current controls that will fit your machine and Thermal Arc has an adapter cable for 14 to 8 pin conversions. I'll get those numbers for you when I get back to the shop.

BTW-you'll love this machine, once you get the hang of it. Very different from the standard tig machine, it uses a pointed tungsten, even on AC aluminum welding. I find 1.5 Lanthanated the best for all applications.
If you are an experienced aluminum tig welder, there is definitely a learning curve. Once learned, though, you'll find you have a great, precise machine. You will love it!!

Anyway, hopes this helps a little...

Good Luck
brande

By LarryL

Date 01-15-2004 06:29

Brande, thanks for your reply. I was hoping that someone like you would have the knowhow to advise me how to modify this hand control. In addition to downloading the schematic for this RCCS-14 control, I found a schematic for my Thermal Arc's foot control that will help me to rewire the hand control with an 8-pin plug. I have a little bit of concern about getting the wires to the ends of the potentiometer reversed.

Dseman - on the Hobart welding forum - mentioned that I should check to see that the resistances of the pots in both units match up. I will go to Radio Shack tomorrow and get the smallest alligator clips available and check the resistances in both RCCS-14 and my foot control.

Dee had posted a reply earlier but now tonight it's missing from this thread. I wonder what happened to her reply. She had mentioned doing something similar to your 14 to 8-pin adapter cable. Since this is a Miller hand control, that would work only if the Miller and Thermal Arc inverters use the same pin connection patterns for the various leads.

I am not an expert TIG welder but have been welding with my old Lincoln IdealArc 250/250 for about 8 years. I've not had the opportunity to TIG weld with any of the modern squarewave welders so welding with the 300GTSW was like leaping from the drivers seat of a Model T to that of a new Lexus. The 300GTSW has an extremely stable arc during AC welding (compared to the sputtering one of my IdealArc) and an unbelievably stable DCEN arc at very low currents. I'm still learning how to use it.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-15-2004 12:02

LarryL,
I saw Dee's reply too, you aren't imagining things. I know it was there yesterday, I saw it with my own eyes. Dee's real name is John, in case you were wondering. I know it's hard to tell (guy?/gal?) from just reading something that is merely typed. Looks like you are finding the info you need to get that machine going. Post your results when you get it all up and running. I'm curious what parts you end up using and where to get them.
John Wright

By brande

Date 01-17-2004 05:25

Larry-

Not a big deal. The 14 pin Miller pots are 1000 ohm, 2 watt rating.
Reversing the two outside wires will only make your current control run backwards, example-control on min-machine on max. That can be cured by a quick reversal of the outside wires.
Yes-Miller and thermal arc use the same pin configuration on their 14 pin plugs.-Pin A&B-contactor control, C&E-outside pins of the pot and D is the pot wiper. K, if it is used is a chassis ground.
Radio Shak has a nice set of small J hooks that will clip on you meter leads. I've used them for years.

Anyway-hope this helps a little. Any other questions, let me know.

Keep us posted!

Good Luck
brande

By LarryL

Date 01-17-2004 23:24

Brande, thanks for all of your information.

I checked the resistances of both my Miller RCCS-14 hand control and my Thermal Arc foot control. The former starts at 20 ohms with contactor open to 1,000+ ohms when fingerwheel is rotated all the way clockwise. The latter starts at 25 ohms with contactor open to approximately 6,000 ohms (my old analog multimeter showed 5,000 to 6,100 ohms depending on the resistance range that I was using) when foot pedal is completely depressed. Doesn't this mean that if I use the RCCS-14 with my TA 300GTSW welder, the control current to the welder will be approximately 5 times the current that is delivered by my foot control? Will this make it difficult for me to control the torch's current output reliably?

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 01-18-2004 04:00

Brande's reply indicates that the pot is wired as a voltage divider. That is voltage to one end of the pot, ground (usually) to the other end, the slider then will have a voltage proportional to its position. Assuming this, the value of the pot (within reason) will have negligable effect.
Bill

By dee

Date 01-17-2004 18:34

Larry,
First, I've managed to convince my wife and kids for over 20 years that Dee's a "he"... :)
Second, I deleted the post myself because I did not actually "know", nor did I mention, any specifics in my answer. Brande's response was so superior to mine as to make it unnecessary, I felt.
I did however, say that I would try to avoid rewiring and personally I'm inclined to go with an adapter. I supervise electrical repairs of this general nature regularly, serviced those same type connectors in the military, and know how they can get horribly confused.

Regards
d

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 01-15-2004 06:32

I'm with dee- I'd build an adapter http://www.digikey.com is a good place to look for the connectors. I have never seen one of these gadgets so I have no idea what connectors it uses. Miller or Thermal Arc may sell the adapter.

If you want to rewire. One way for pins to be fixed into connectors is with a little catch that springs open when you push the pin through the hole. There is a tool to remove this sort of pin. It is a little tube you push over the pin, that pushes the little catch down and then you can withdraw the pin. There are several sizes. Only worth doing if the same size pins go into the 8 pin. Otherwise cut the wires and solder them into the new pins.

I don't know the pinouts but if you don't have them some of the people who read this site do repairs and they may know.

Bill

See I went away for a few minutes and you got much better answers while I was gone.

By LarryL

Date 01-21-2004 18:10

Well, after a final consultation with one of the Thermal Arc consultants, I decided to order the parts to change the 14-pin connector plug of my RCCS-14 hand remote control to an 8-pin one. I found all of the parts at Allied Electronics. The total cost for the 8-pin plug (Allied #512-1116), pins (#512-9520) and insertion tool (#512-0470) including sales tax and shipping will come to a little over $65. Thermal Arc does make an adapter cord (T/A #10-4003). It sells for $91, which is astounding for a short piece of wire with plugs on both ends. Another option I could have chosen was to auction off the RCCS-14 since it appears to be a new unit, and, purchase a T/A hand control. However, I decided, however, that I preferred using the Miller RCCS-14 over the T/A one.

Brande, after I finish this modification, I'll have no need for most of the solder-on cup, DF-20 pins, remaining from the 100 pack that I had to purchase. Can I send you the 80+ that I won't need? Otherwise they would sit around and gather dust in my workshop for the next 10 or more years.

Dee, sorry for the mistaken gender identity.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-21-2004 18:15

LarryL,
Thanks for posting the update on your project. Always like to hear how a person finds ways to fix things and how they went about it.
John Wright

By DEA Date 01-21-2004 20:48

Do you wnt to sell your 14 pin connector and some pins?
I'm going to convert a T/A foot controler to a Miller 14 pin.
As soon as I receive the T/A foot controller.
Any suggestions on this?
thanks
Doug

By LarryL

Date 01-22-2004 00:02

No, but I'll be willing to give it to you along with about 20 pins if you're willing to pay the FedEx shipping which may come to $4 or $5. You have to understand that it may require a special tool to extract the existing pins from my old plug and insert the new ones - since I'm going to cut off the present wire to it just outside the plug. I don't have the tool to open up this 14-pin plug (it looks like the inner cylinder unscrews from the outer housing). Brande may have a suggestion on what is needed to take it apart. As I mentioned, the pins I ordered have a solder-cup type connection. I didn't buy the less-expensive, crimp-type pins because those require a special crimping tool. Another shocker: the cheapest crimping tool (Allied Electronics catalog) costs about $150, and, the more expensive one costs $500+ (perhaps this tool is made of 14K gold?). I'll be able to confirm my offer to you next week after my order arrives from Allied Electronics.

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 01-22-2004 03:58

Solder is the more reliable connection anyway.

Some pins can be extracted using a brass ball point pen refill as the tool.

Bill

By LarryL

Date 01-23-2004 00:55

DEA, I compared the Miller's and Thermal Arc's connector plugs by putting them alongside each other.this morning. The Miller's pins are larger in diameter and longer than the Thermal Arc's pins. Therefore, the DF-20 pins that I will have on hand will not be of any use to you. You can still have my 14-pin Miller plug, however, if you want it.

I spent a couple of hours this afternoon fabricating from scrap steel a cylindrical type of spanner wrench for taking apart a 14-pin plug (With a little bit of silver or gold plating on it, it should retail for $250 ;<D ). I don't know what the commercial wrench looks like but mine worked fine and enabled me to unscrew the connector. The existing pins in it appear to me to be the crimp style. There are no markings on the 14-pin plug so I can't determine what kind of replacement, solder-cup pins it will take. Brande probably can provide you with this information. You can have my homemade cylindrical spanner tool also since I will have no further use for it after modifying my hand remote control.

By DEA Date 01-24-2004 04:32

Larry
Yes,I'm interested in the 14 pin connector
Leave a little bit of the pig tail and maybe I can splice into it
Let me know the details
Thanks
Doug

By DEA Date 01-24-2004 14:44

I also found some connectors at
www.ssccontrols.com

By DEA Date 01-24-2004 15:32

The foot cont. is a Thermadyne
Sorry I posted it as a Thermal arc But I guess thats the same outfit
Doug

By dee

Date 01-21-2004 21:07

Larry,
No sweat... I wanted to use "D" as my handle, but it was too short and so came the result. (it was the name by which my friends sometimes knew me)

I tried to be funny about it and poke some fun- I didnt mean anything other than that by my comments.
Regards
d

By brande

Date 01-25-2004 06:22

I'll take them off your hands, as I do a good deal of plug work.

Let me know how much you want for these buggers, and I will send my address. Email direct if time is an issue.

I'm glad you got your problem worked out, and I hope my advice played some very small part.

Feels really good when you beat the factory out of a few bucks, doesn't it??

Good Luck

brande

By LarryL

Date 01-26-2004 01:48

Brande, just mail me your address offline and I'll mail you the pins when I finish putting on the new connector. Allied Electronics only sent me half of an 8-pin connector so I can't work on it until I receive the other half sometime later this week. Your advice has been very helpful and it more than compensated me for the cost of the excess pins.

There were mixed opinions on the Hobart welding forum about whether just changing the plug to an 8-pin one would make this Miller hand remote control work well with a Thermal Arc welder - because the Miller remotes have a 1K potentiometer and the Thermal Arcs have a 5K one. A welding tech on that forum indicated that the remote would be super sensitive. However, the Thermal Arc engineer indicated that it would be useable. I have all the parts ordered so I feel that I'm committed to trying this modification.

By brande

Date 01-26-2004 03:26

Shouldn't be a big deal-I've run Miller controls on Thermal Arc equipment with little problem.

Good Luck

brande

By dee

Date 01-26-2004 08:40

Larry,
I despise people who use a forum to bash businesses they dont like... I gotta give you a heads-up on this, though.

I stopped dealing with Allied because they "back-ordered" a small part I needed, a very small, 10 cent pushbutton switch which was the whole purpose for putting up a fifty dollar minimum order. After some weeks of waiting, with a paying customer awaiting a repair on the other end of this botched transaction, Allied tells me I have to reorder - in order to do so another fifty dollar minimum was required.
After years of satisfactory service no less. They were bought by a group called in-one I think which ruined them. A different in-one company hung up an extruder repair on me for four weeks on a part they said they had, which they never did get.

I'd like to hear they have their act together again; I used to like Allied till they went sour on me, and I'd like to use them again if it's practical for me.

Don't let the transaction get away from you.

Regards
d

By LarryL

Date 01-26-2004 16:31

Dee, I wasn't trying to bash Allied Electronics. Not having built or repaired any electronic equipment recently, I haven't dealt with any electronics suppliers for a long, long time. I dealt with Allied because I thought that its online catalog was the easiest of all to navigate. I couldn't determine, however, from the item's online image or description whether or not the connector plug included the cable clamp. Therefore I phoned and asked a sales rep if it included the clamp. She thought it did and therefore I placed my order. When it arrived last Friday, I found that the plug didn't have the clamp end. I phoned Allied again and explained my problem as I didn't want to have to place a $25 minimum order just to get this $3 item. This different sales rep said that he would send it to me as a sample - even though I offered to pay for it. They made good on it even though it meant a few more days delay in getting the parts I need to modify my hand remote control.

Maybe Allied has been trying to improve their image since you last dealt with them?

By LarryL

Date 01-30-2004 05:53

This afternoon I received from Allied Electronics via UPS the final part that I needed, the clamp half of the 8-pin connector plug. Late in the day I spent over 2 hours soldering the wires into the tiny cup ends of the pins, checking and rechecking via my diagrams and multimeter until I was sure that everything was connected properly and finally inserting the pins in the plug. After supper I attached the connector to my Thermal Arc 300GTSW and mounted the hand remote on my torch. I turned everything on and ran a short bead on a piece of steel at 150 amp. DCEN. To my astonishment the hand remote worked flawlessly - it was not overly sensitive as I afraid it would be. The only part that I wasn't sure of was what to do with the free end of coaxial shielding from the cable. Miller's diagram shows the shielding connected to pin "K". Thermal Arc's cables don't seem to have any shielding. I just rolled the shielding into a wire and wrapped it around the other 5 wires. Anybody have any better suggestion? I couldn't solder it into a pin because the rolled up shielding made a wire of about #10 diameter (#18 is about the largest size that will fit into the cups of the pins).

Thank you all for your assistance. Don't worry, Brande, I won't be taking away any welding repair jobs from you in the future!

By dee

Date 01-30-2004 18:30

That's why I hated those connectors- I didn't have the patience... I can only remember connecting the shield to a "chassis ground" to differentiate it from any other isolated grounds or negative potentials which may be in the circuit. I am sure Brande or someone else who knows will correct me if I am wrong.
All the connectors I was familiar with were metallic- there was no connecting pin "per-se" but the connector itself served to complete the shield and the connection was accomplishaed at the strain-relief. Sometimes this was to shield from EMR (which was more than extremely important) sometimes for safety.