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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / melted tungstens
- - By djbrown Date 01-18-2004 01:45
The company I work for recently acquired a very old heli-arc setup.No matter how I adjust the old piece of junk it still melts my tungsten.Any ideas on how I can avoid this?Its an old miller 260 amp from the early 60s.Any info is greatly apreciated.
Parent - - By - Date 01-18-2004 02:42
Is your polarity right?
Parent - By djbrown Date 01-19-2004 01:27
As for the polarity question i have tried it on both straight and reverse and i still get the same results.I talked to my supervisor and he said it had been in storage for about 15 years.I'm supposed to have it up and running by this friday.Most of my experience is with mig and flux core and stick welders.A guy from praxair is supposed to come in on tuesday to help me with it although praxair has not been too helpful in the past.they pretty much got a monopoly on anything to do with welding in southern indiana.
Parent - - By OSUtigger (**) Date 01-18-2004 20:53
dj,

Our shop recently dug out an old Wisconsin-driven Hobart thats older than I had ever seen (It's a university/state funded shop, so there is no telling what all we have that has been lost in the paperwork). I am guessing it was somewhere from about the 50's or 60's. I know that an engine driven is completely different from a TIG, but here was our problem- Once we got the engine running (there is no telling how long it set unused) I had trouble with the rheostat--setting the machine on 100 amps danged near killed the engine and produced an arc similar to a nuclear explosion, but setting it around 20 amps was just about right for 1/8" 6010 or 3/32" 7018. Kinda weird, but since we don't do but a little bit of fab outside of the shop, I could get used to it. However, once on sight welding on some channel iron for stairs and catwalks, I found the voltage just didn't seem right--it was extremely difficult to maintain the arc, and there seemed to be no happy medium between full-nuclear and down-feather soft. I figured that this was simply because of the true DC (generator) and went on. After a number of hours of use, it has become much easier to maintain the arc but rheostat settings are still way off.

I say this because I have heard of old SA-200's that had a similar problem with the voltage that was fixed by simply connecting the stinger and ground together and bogging the engine (the way I understood it was it "burnt" whatever was interfering out, but I have no clue what it actually did), and the machine ran fine afterwards. I figure those old TIGs may be set up in the rectifier somehow similar. Setting the machine at what you actually think the amperage should be could be actually setting it way too high due to some mechanical inconsistency and melting your tungsten, and setting the amps lower may not quite produce the voltage needed to actually weld like you want it. I'm sure that there is probably a better way to fix the voltage problem than to run a closed circuit like I have heard about on the SA's, maybe something like simply blowing out the internals and cleaning them up, and just mechanically readjusting the rheostat to the right place.

I as well would appreciate any info or confirmation of this practice, and if anyone has had a similar problem like I stated above, I am well open for suggestions, even if after reading this you just have to sit back and shake your head. That being said, I gotta admit that the old Hobart produces one of the purdy-est arcs I have ever seen, albeit in the wrong settings.

Thank you all in advance and good luck, dj, on that old machine!

G. L.
Parent - - By djbrown Date 01-19-2004 01:34
I took the cover off and cleaned out all the internals and it didnt make any difference.I dont know if i should turn it all the way up and make a closed circuit like you said or not as it only has a 60% cycle.When i was a production welder in a factory i saw a deltaweld 450 with a 100% cycle burn up when it was ran on its highest setting for an extended period of time.
Parent - By dee (***) Date 01-19-2004 03:07
DJ,
I'm sensitive to the concept that old equipment is junk merely because of it's age. Much energy is being spent in engineering today to "get less to do more", or, as my uncle would say, "If it were a butcher who sliced it any thinner he'd have missed it". With that off my chest...
A "clamp-on" ammeter is not extremely expensive. The right one will also serve to verify voltage and might provide some clue as to the condition of various controls if you need to look that far into the unit. I cannot give specs on what OCV to expect at a given amp setting, but I am sure others can; I expect some proportion according to laws of physics.
They are actually quite simple to operate; if you have had no experience with those meters dont let it intimidate you.

Since I have this kind of test equipment handy to me I would use it first. I feel like it's playing just a little bit more safe.
Another thought, grasping for straws... is it set properly for the power you are supplying to it?

Regards & good luck
d
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 01-19-2004 05:09
TV tuner cleaner (you can get it in Radio Shack) on the reostat and then rack it back and forth might clean the contact to the wiper. Cheap and harmless. Does it work the same at all settings? Could be a fault in the remote control wiring (ie foot pedal).
Bill
Parent - By Tim Buyle (**) Date 01-19-2004 09:43
don't forget the way of the gasses !
pure Ar or Ar/He is needed ... gasses containing O2, CO2 will burn your tungsten within seconds !
Parent - - By kam (**) Date 01-19-2004 13:50
What type of rod are you using?
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 01-19-2004 17:43
How is the polarity changed on this machine? Is it a switch or does it require swapping the leads?
Parent - - By Niekie3 (***) Date 01-19-2004 18:57
Hi djbrown

Does the tungsten melt almost immediately when you strike the arc, or does it take some time. - A minute or two?

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Parent - - By djbrown Date 01-19-2004 22:03
I had an electrician come in and look at the reostat.He said it was bad.I had to go by what he said seeing as how im a fabricator and not an electrician.We have an old burnt up sureweld which has the same parts in it as our old miller 260,so i had the guy take the reostat off the sureweld and put it on the miller.He said he had to rig it up a little but it welds pretty good for a few seconds at a time ,then it seems to turn the heat up by itself.As long as the weld im making is only about 3 or 4 inches long it does just fine.I welded some one sixteenth inch thick carbon steel with no filler rod and it did pretty good.Its not going to see much use anyway.ive got a deltaweld 450 and a 600 amp lincoln stick welder and they can handle about anything i throw at them.could one of you guys tell me what type of tungsten and shielding gas works the best on carbon steel?stainless?aluminum?any info is greatly appreciated!
Parent - By DGXL (***) Date 01-19-2004 22:16
Use 2% thoriated tungsten (EWTh-2)
Parent - By Niekie3 (***) Date 01-21-2004 19:32
Hi djbrown

If you do not seem to pick the problem up immediately following the striking of the arc, then you probably do not have the gas or polarity problems that some people suspect. It just sounds like a problem in the machine. The only thing that is bothering me is that such a relatively low amperage machine should not be able to just melt your tungsten so quickly. (Even if it is "spinning" out of control.) It typically takes a higher amperage machine, running AC or something simmilar. Sorry that I can't give you better advice here.

Just a thought though. Some of the old power sources did come out with a possibility to switch them between CC and CV. (This feature I never found to really work effectively in CV mode.) I do not know the machine you are mentioning, so I do not know if this feature was on the machine. If it is, just make sure it has been set to CC.

Regarding the electrodes and gas, we typically use 2%Th for C/Steel and S/Steel with 99.998% Ar. For Al, we would use pure Tungsten with AC current and Ar gas, or Ar/He mix if you needed some extra heat.

Hope this helps

Regards
Niekie Jooste
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