Help a young one out.

Date 01-18-2004 16:18

Hello Dark

At my shop we have had a Millermatic 135 115V flux core mig welder for about three months now, and it has made my life more pain free. This welder is very portable which is why it has helped me so much. Alot of the time I have to make a weld in a school building that may be more than a 100 feet down a hall way or on the second floor of a school. Befor I was draging hundreds of feet of cable from our welder on the back of the truck. With the 115v Millermatic all I need is the machine and a extintion cord. I think this would be a good canidate for you.

By bzzzzzzzzzz (**)

Date 01-18-2004 16:33

Or, if you have a little more money... Get a small inverter like the maxstar. It'll do tig or stick up to 150 amps and it weighs slightly over 10 lbs. Miller now offers a 3 year warranty on these units . This unit operates on 110 or 220, and automatically adjusts for the correct input votage. If portatbility is a major consideration, this would be my first choice. They run about $1100 for the tig and stick, $600 for the stick only. It comes with a nice case that can be carried about like a large cordless drill. When the time comes, I will sell my MM wire unit and get me one of these puppies. The only thing with these is watch them carefully as they could easily "walk away" from a jobsite if the wrong person finds it unattended. Oh, and I forgot to mention that these inverter units can produce more weld amps/input source amps as compared to transformer type welders. Thay could be important when you don't know what circuit is going to be availible at the site.

By thirdeye (***)

Date 01-19-2004 16:49

If you guys keep talking like this, I might have to buy a maxstar instead of just thinking about it. Someone from work e-mailed me the link from the Miller site on the 150. The size and weight are to good to be true. I know the 150 is new and it replaces the 140 (which had problems with 6010) but are there any other comments pro or con on the 150 or the 200?

By dseman

Date 01-21-2004 00:42

Thirdeye,
There's a guy on the hobart board by the name of BillC who purchased the maxstar 150S (stick only) and has burned all manner of rod in all kinds of positions. It will work fine with 6011 and 7018 but has a problem both in starting and maintaing an arc on 6010. After searching and reading all the data I could find on the Miller site, it is my conclusion that Miller (and Lincoln following not long after) advertises the fact if a particular inverter model will burn 6010 and 7018 well. If they don't advertise the fact, then in all likelihood the machine will not do very well. Consistant with this approach, the maxstar 150 was advertised as running 7018 very well--which BillC has indicated it does. But he had a bear of a time trying to run 6010. These little maxstars, as opposed to their bigger brothers the 200 and 300 amp models, don't have an adjustable arc force or a very aggressive hot-start function. This, along with possibly a limited inductance, may be the reasoning for it's lackluster 6010 performance. But if you are willing to run 6011 instead, it appears to be just fine. Moving up to the 200dx will give you the arc force control and from what I've heard from Ernie on the google welding board, is able to run any rod just fine--including 6010.

-dseman

By thirdeye (***)

Date 01-21-2004 17:36

dseman

Thanks for the information and the redirect to the Hobart site!

By dee

Date 01-18-2004 18:37

Dark,
The least expensive, most versitle arc welder is probably a "stick" welder. The Miller 135 has a good reputation but I don't think it's going to offer the kind of economy and versitility you can get out of a small stick unit... they tend to be favored on farms and such with similar budget constraints; a relatively expensive inverter supply probably cannot provide you with enough advantage to offset the extra cost, but $600 might provide an attractive piece of equipment if you can keep it secure where you put it...
On the other hand you also need to have care when thinking about what you are willing to weld... scaffolding and other critical structures (e.g. overhead) might be better left to professionals or perhaps a school of some kind with persons there competent to inspect the welds... if people's safety depends on the structure's security please dont try it yourself without some authority verifying your ability to perform, so go for training first. Friends have been killed in 8" (yes, thats INCH) falls.

If you plan to be putting together "wacky" stuff like sets and such perhaps the benefit of the versitility of an oxyfuel torch is more appropriate. Have you considered a torch?

It's really not been a left-field question.

Regards,
d

By DOUBLE D Date 01-18-2004 19:21

This is where you ask those type of questions. I do not know your price range or the method you really wish or have experience in so here it goes. I would agree the Maxstar 200 STR is the product to have if you want to remain portable with extension cords to some degree. You may also wish to consider the MM251 If your looking for a mig welder and more of a shop based unit. I hope this helps you.
Double D

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 01-19-2004 05:14

Another vote for stick here. If you put the word out among your sponsors perhaps somebody will give you something.
Bill

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 01-20-2004 14:38

All good comments. My vote would be for GMAW (MIG) only because SMAW (Stick) requires much more practice in order to get a decent weld. I'm sure I'll hear some flack from that but if a guy doesn't weld quite a bit I don't think stick welding would be my choice! What Dark Theatre would save in labor costs would probably allow him or his company to buy a simple GMAW machine.

By dee

Date 01-20-2004 23:50

Jon,
You are correct...you will get flack :)

I am curious as to how you arive at that conclusion... here's why I think I disagree...

GMAW machines are contraptions when compared to the simplicity of stick. You can worry about wire selection, adjusting feed mechinisms, feed settings, voltage settings, stick-out, gas mix & flow rate, feed angle, travel speed, and various other technique issues. SMAW often requires merely filler selection and amp adjustment, which permits a bit more concentration on technique when welds are not testing well.
Give a newbie an improperly proportioned (mislabeled) mix and he may never figure out how to weld with that piece of equipment; there are simply too many variables to be able to solve problems efficiently, particularly if you are learning on your own.
I found the hardest part of SMAW was to strike the arc.

The friendly folks at the looney bin said I'm ok now, so I know I'm not nuts... perhaps I was just lucky?
(Once I learned to start the arc well, I figured out how to cut the rods down to where I could use them more comfortably... they are too darn long when they're new.)

On a side point, those wire reels cost quite a few bucks more to build a selection of, compared to a variety of rods of various sizes and alloy.

Everyone says GMAW is easier to learn (well, it is a popular opinion if not unanimous) however I don't accept it based both on face evidence, as well as my personal experience. Folks who teach it may know something I don't, and, to be fair, I already had some welding experience before picking up my first stick electrode.
I am not ridiculing contrary opinion when I say, in all honesty, I am curious as to how others base their opinion.

Regards
d

By bzzzzzzzzzz (**)

Date 01-21-2004 00:04

Fusion and penetration will be more insured with smaw done by a beginer as compared to gmaw. I have put down some welds in hast on rusty steel with my gmaw, and was quite surprised when they cleanly peeled off the piece. A good stick weld with a general purpose rod is hard to do that with, even though it may look horrible.

By dee

Date 01-21-2004 00:56

precisely!

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 01-21-2004 14:35

Dee, my comments re GMAW vs. SMAW were largely based around the skill factor. You are correct in that GMAW is a contraption when compared to SMAW however, learning proper settings especially with a little "book learning" are, in my personal opinion, much easier than running 50 or 100 pounds of rod in order to learn the basics of proper technique, manipulation, etc. I'm sure it's just a a matter of personal preference but learning GMAW techniques were for me lightyears simpler than learning the SMAW techniques. If Dark Theater was going into the welding profession, of course I would be the first to jump on board and recommend SMAW as a beginning method. With regard to budget constraints, I agree a SMAW would be much less expensive in the short term. My concerns re SMAW are for flexibilty; i.e., what if Dark Theater has a need to weld aluminum at some point? I know, I know, they make aluminum electrodes, but no one I've ever spoken with has had much luck with SMAW welding aluminum. Okay.... there's another nickels worth on top of my two cents! :)

By dee

Date 01-21-2004 20:58

Jon,
Your opinion needn't agree with mine for me to respect it.

My experience with the two processes was just the opposite, however, and one of the little things I always wanted to do was to figure out how "those folks could say something like that" regarding GMAW's learning curve... the system is much more complex, which presented some difficulty until I could get it right.
...now I will be off exploring the psychology behind the difference as it relates to the apptitude we're describing. (no, I am NOT saying you're nuts in a $2.00 vocabulary)

I appreciate you taking the time to share those details, although I still hold to my original opinion..

Regards
d

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-22-2004 00:48

Ok here's my two cents,
SMAW with a 7024 drag rod on mild steel. It just doesn't get any easier than that. 7024 will look and perform nicely with minimal experience and doesn't require a rod oven. Move on to an F-4 rod after the guy gets some experience with making nice welds. "Most" things can be welded in a 1F or 2F position without turning the world upside down. With GMAW, I'll admit the trigger is very easy to squeeze and make fire fly, but the degree of success really depends on more variables as has been stated already.
John Wright

By dee

Date 01-22-2004 03:02

John,
I think it's great you thought to mention those details to help Darktheater along, and I hope he sees it in case he's buying from a catalog or the like...

Probably, as you alluded, the difference we're discussing has much to do with the individual's expectations for the welds they're producing. Beauty may be skin deep; performance is my criteria for rejection where cosmetics rarely offset physical properties. I'm lucky I never had much difficulty making molten metal do what I want... or perhaps time flies when you're having fun, I dunno. It's what floats my boat.

I can't think of anything anybody left out. I hope "theDarkman" is still lurking out there and drops back in with a comment or question.

Regards
d

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 01-22-2004 13:09

Dee, I have an enormous respect for nearly everyones opinion in here (including yours!) so no need to worry about that. John Wright's points are also well taken. I guess it's simply a matter of personal preference and our own individual experiences.

By flatjwl (*)

Date 01-21-2004 00:17

Your comments indicate a budget constraint situation. Considering this and the various materials you mentioned, I would suggest a stick welding machine. Low cost, reasonable portability, and you won't have to have the machine within 5 feet of your project to perform your work.

By Bill A

Date 01-21-2004 01:38

I vote for stick (SMAW) and use the money you save by not buying a wire machine to get some formal training in arc welding. I agree with a previous post that anything that involves safety or structural loading should be left to a trained craftsman. I have seen many GMAW welds supposedly made by "good welders" that looked great on the OD but had no fusion to the base metal. Often an SMAW bead will probably be uglier but have better fusion and joint strength than a GMAW bead made by someone with inadequate training or experience.

By bzzzzzzzzzz (**)

Date 01-22-2004 13:25

Definitely get some decent training. Even if it's just a seasoned professional welder advising you. Safety needs to be addressed as the welds won't matter if you burn the set down. You'll also learn some things about what makes a "good" weld. One thing not addressed with the stick/gmaw debate; The gmaw will likely be able to weld thin sheet metals far more easily than stick. Even with inexperienced hands. Aluminum is an option with gmaw too, although it will have serious limitations with the type gmaw you'd be opting for. Good luck and be safe.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-22-2004 14:37

Bzzzzzzzzzz, dee, jon and others,
You all have also brought very good points to the table.
Dark Theater,
You should have plenty to feast from.
John Wright

By - Date 01-28-2004 03:52

tig is too hard for any begineer welder,atleast try mig for a begineer but you really can't weld too much with those kind of welders especially if there's a little gap,and another thing about tig is that you can't expect most tig welders to weld above a 1/4 inch,but your choice there,i'd stay with stick because you weld aluminum,cast iron with nickel rod,and weld any type of carbon steel,

By artgirl (*)

Date 01-28-2004 14:36

Here is a thought from the beauty section: Although I love Mig for my sculpture, I have to vote for stick for Dark Theater. The people I know who only weld occasionally with little training (farmers, horse people, my engineer brother) get good penetration and reliable welds with a stick. Any set designer knows how to make things look pretty. He can make a quick grind or disguise with paint and putty. But safety is really important in those situations. I think low cost and adaptability make the case for stick.
You guys who worry about the appearance of the weld would not believe the comments I get from art customers. A lady yesterday admired the "pretty metal" on the nastiest weld I have produced in months. I was hanging off a ten foot ladder holding a whole bumper in exactly the right angle, so I was happy to stick it on and planned to reweld for penetration later. But the customer wanted to know why I did not make all welds "lacy" like that.
Good luck to you Dark Theater. The guys on the forum and a freindly face in the welding supply store will get you through any welding need.
Artgirl