Steel prices

Date 02-28-2004 17:01

I heard something about this at work yesterday. Apparently China is buying up as much scrap steel from the world market as possible and there is a shortage. A lot of steel today is made from recycled scrap. I is affecting weld rod prices and availability also. There is supposed to be some info on the ESAB website.

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 02-29-2004 05:01

A little off the subject but steel is the prototype for recycleable materials. Heard a statement once that the steel you use today probably has a few iron atoms in it that were once part of a Roman sword.
Bill

By pfortin (*)

Date 03-01-2004 17:47

Swords to plowshares eh?
I've heard the same story from my aluminum suppliers about China buying up all the ore they can get thier hands on.

By thirdeye (***)

Date 02-28-2004 17:40

In March 2002, the government determined that certain steel products were being imported in such increased quantities as to be a substantial cause of serious injury or threat of serious injury to the U.S. steel industry. President Bush imposed tariffs and tariff-rate quotas on a variety of steel products. These tariffs were from 8 percent to 30 percent on certain kinds of foreign-made steel. The plan was to give the domestic industry a three-year respite from foreign competition. This was intended to stop a tide of layoffs and bankruptcies among the big steel producers in the United States. The tariffs mean that U.S. companies are locked into prices set by American producers.

In addition to the rising cost of steel, many of my clients are seeing a long delivery time for their steel orders. (The prices are rising so quickly that they can not honor quotes older than 15 or 20 days).

By DGXL

Date 02-28-2004 17:42

Good reply by 3rdeye.

Expect welding electrodes and filler metals to go through the roof right behind gasoline.

My clients are now quoting at 7 days. It's going up that fast.

By - Date 02-28-2004 22:12

[deleted]

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-01-2004 13:32

3rd I and DGXL,
We are asking the impossible out of our purchasing agents too. Bids are blown by not being able to quote because of the unknown prices when these jobs are due to be built. By the time these jobs go up, who knows if you guessed correctly when quoting the job. The price went up over 30G's above what we had in our quote for the cost of the materials for a job we bid a couple weeks ago.
John Wright

By MBSims

Date 02-29-2004 00:10

Here's some info regarding scrap prices and the raw materials surcharge:

http://www.aisc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Press_Releases1&template=/PressRelease/PressReleaseDisplay.cfm&PressReleaseID=139&PressReleaseCategoryID=1&ShowArchives=0

By MBSims

Date 02-29-2004 00:14

More info:

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2004/02/15/news/top_news/52e664410cc6002886256e3b0010e4ff.txt

By - Date 02-29-2004 16:56

[deleted]

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 03-01-2004 09:11

What did I say????????????????

Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By thirdeye (***)

Date 03-01-2004 15:09

SSBN727

I've never lived in Pittsburgh. Have several good friends from there, welders, steelworkers and one retired from USAir. Just curious about Weirton, I had heard some bad rumors regarding loss of employee benefits and a buyout.

P.S. My spelling is getting worse all the time. I do crossword puzzles daily but haven't played Scrabble in 10 years. (I could play a three letter word and the wife would add five tiles to it, usually using an X or Z, get the bonus, and I still had to ask for the defination).

By dee

Date 03-03-2004 21:19

Thirdeye-
Was this Bush's plan?!? Didn't he hold out against it for a period of time? I missed the details, but who pressured him to approve it and how did your state (or even mine?) vote on it? Since when does the Executive Branch make the laws?

Moreover, the plan seems counter-intuitive to me.
I long for the days when demand was so high workers asked for and received better wages and benefits because they deserved it (at least it was a point of argument, declining domestic goods' workmanship being a chief justification for buying imports), and the profits were there for them to get it.

Big mills (USS) as I understand it dont (or didnt when there WERE a few mills) hobble themselves in this manner. They can buy ore or coke from whomever can supply it at lowest cost, even if it IS their competitor...is this still the case?

The good news is that by the time my kids' student loans are due the money wont be worth squat... such are the forces driving a free economy. The world was a different place when the constitution provided for tariffs to fund the cost of government.

Regards
d

BTW I see many quotes in your link even predated the 9/11 incident. I found identifying the context rather complicated as the publisher presented it. I dont know what conclusion to draw from the quotes except that they are esentially unintelligible for any practical purpose; I doubt the candidates write speeches merely to have themdiced into three sentence particles.

By thirdeye (***)

Date 03-04-2004 04:39

dee

It's my recollection that President Bush initiated an investigation to be conducted by the International Trade Commission on the subject of the steel industry to determine the harm done by imports and other factors. The commission made certain recommendations to Bush regarding timelines, products and associated tariffs etc. Representatives of various steel industries also voiced opinions for his consideration. The voting issue bothered me and after some digging I found that the President makes the final decision whether to provide relief and to what degree and terms. (Surely, his top advisors were consulted).

I guess his plan seems counteroffensive to me, the imported articles being the enemy of the U.S. steel industry, economically speaking. Maintaining benefits for the 500,000+ retirees from the U.S steel industry is another serious issue.

You’re right about the quotes in the link I posted. They are only snapshots of the opinions of the candidates and could be taken a number of ways.

By thirdeye (***)

Date 02-29-2004 17:49

Good links posted by MBSims. The articles opened my eyes to the other factors that must be considered: A shortage of and increased price of coke, the current price of scrap, worldwide demand for scrap as well as high consumption of raw materials by China and the fact that coal prices have doubled in the past year. To protect their profits, manufacturers have tacked surcharges onto their finished steel and are passing the added costs along to their customers.

ssbn727, You are correct regarding the lifting of the tariff in December of 2003 and the fact that president's decision to lift the tariffs drew instant fire from American steelworkers in Pittsburg. What is going on at the Clairton Coke Works? What are the details regarding the sale of Weirton?

By dee

Date 03-01-2004 14:37

Yup,
I see the price of steel is skyrocketing for several reasons. What the industry, under government direction, did with federal assistance (MY money) and what they neglected decades ago, even, if memory serves that far back, under Carter, brought them to where they are today. I'll recant and admit I might be wrong if the increase in revenue goes toward equipment, plant, R&D, and elsewhere to improve our ability to compete and preserve what jobs remain. It's likely that it wont. Certainly what I wil collectively refer to as the "steelworkers interests" have thrown a damper on the economy and all manner of manufacture and construction which deals with steel. This too has a strategic value to be placed on the balance.

Politics and women are two topics best left alone. That female lawyer who was elected senator may be somebody's mother-in-law.

Anyway, something had to be done in the face of pressure,and an import tax was levied which I think I understand makes some attempt at "fairness". There's little point in talking about it if we're unwilling to actually do anything to help refine the process after the discussion. At least, thats how one warped mind is bent.

Do we have some sort of lobby? (I dont mean the one just inside the front door)

regards
d

By G.S.Crisi (****)

Date 03-01-2004 17:37

Here in Brazil, a third world, underdeveloped country, when the price of a raw material (steel in this case) increases, all of the prices of things made with that material go up.
Later, when the price of that raw material decreases, the prices of the things made with it stay where they are.
Does that happen in the USA as well?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 03-01-2004 19:16

Here's a REAL eye popper!! All of my Company work is nuclear so we are used to paying exhorbitant pricing for our filler metals. Recently, I went to buy some ER70S-6 on 2 pound spools for our automatic GTAW machine. Price? $52.59/lb The exact same stuff that I paid $8.50/lb for less than 6 months ago!!!

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-01-2004 20:15

Prof. Crisi

After having hosted an exchange student from Brazil and having dialog with you its very hard to consider your country 3rd world. When you guys get coordinated in the use of your abundant resources Brazil shall be an even greater economic force to be reconed with. Thats the good news.

The bad news is of course that as soon as you become excellent at a new thing and put it into production, we <the geniuses in our legislative branch> will slap a tarrif on it in the name of fairness.

USA was being undercut in steel, so we put a heavy tarrif on it. This of course made the playing field *level* so manufactures had to pay more for steel across the board. Many will choose American steel if the price is equal. This increased demand for American steel gave the producers the bright Idea of raising the prices because demand increased....

Oh what a tangled web we weave!

When ever we move toward Socialist trade policies <tarrifs> things go bad as the ripples have their effect on manufacturing. Then the Govt. is held responsible for the catastrophy and more taxes are levied to bail out or otherwise protect industry.

Our constitutional provision to "promote the general welfare" was never intended to force the citizens to pay for private industry capitialization with tax revenues, but now its as common as getting up in the morning.

Caviet Emptor! (Let the Buyer beware)

Carpe Diem! (sieze the day)

Laisez faire (hands off** this means Government)

"There is no free lunch" ....Fredrich Hayak--Nobel prize in economics

By texarc

Date 03-01-2004 21:50

OK so how long will this price increse last and how long before the prices drops? Our metal suppliers bid has gotten so bad, his bids only good for one day!

By dee

Date 03-02-2004 03:12

Lawrence,
Sorry to jump in on your comments to Mr Crisi. I am glad you said what you had to. I had mulled over several deleted attempts at posts and gave up on being able to respond to the question without railing on our government. I lack the eloquence. I believe the bottom line is that there is a complicated dynamic at work and it's been grounds for outside observers and critics to argue our form of government would not be able to last since it was invented back in 1776. This is how we do our thing.

Back when [I think it was Nixon] the auto industry got a subsidy to help it compete with imports, prices rose... this has not been the first time the steel industry has been treacherous to our economy- they've had allowances and subsidies which were not applied to making them more competitive with foriegn competition and growing the employment rolls. It should be no surprise that we have seen the scenario you described.

On the other hand, the world economy does not subscribe to a laisez faire philosophy- this mess has been engineered, and the field is not balanced on a level scale. (look at pollution control as an immediate easy, although imperfect example)

I'm a little worried that the forces involved in international finance and with control over the vast sums of money that drive world market trends to invest or divest from interests in America do not have your or my interests anywhere near their mind, nor are they answerable to us at the polls, nor do many even reside here- some overtly hate us. It's good to have some kind of rudder on the ship.

Mr Crisi,
I seem to see our prices going down somewhat less than the proportional drop in raw material, but they do not remain the same. Avirice is not the only dynamic. Rising prices tend to cause pressure for higher wages, higher wages and material costs pressure engineers to redesign for value rather than durability- it's a tough answer to find. I feel we get what we demand, but those giving back tend to be extremely untrustworthy in their representations.

Best regards
d

By G.S.Crisi (****)

Date 03-02-2004 15:35

I'm amazed. Thirdeye speaks of President Bush imposing tariffs. Dee speaks of President Nixon doing the same. Both are Republicans. I thought that imposing tariffs to protect the US industry against foreign competition was a thing that only Democrats used to do. Democrats, as everybody know, are not Socialists but sometimes like the Government acting actively and directly on economy, which Republicans do not.
Another thing regarding my previous post. Yesterday, March 1, 2004, the price of new cars here in Brazil rose by an average of 3%, a little bit more or less depending on the model.
The five manufacturers, Ford, General Motors, Volkswagen, Fiat and Honda, justified the increase because of the "steel prices", and warned the people that the prices will raise even more if the steel keeps on raising.
If somebody thinks that the cars prices will drop when the steel drops, I must give him (or her) a bad notice: Santa Claus doesn't exist, it's the parents who bring the gifts.
Giovanni S. Crisi

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-02-2004 16:01

Trade, protectionism and economics make for some of the strangest bedfellows and NONE of the parties walk in lockstep in this regard. As mentioned by somebody else, this is all terribly complicated and legislators (the folks who actually make the laws) appear cast votes that promote economic prosperity for their local areas without a thought to the bigger picture. (can’t make the voters mad I guess)

In the past decade, the AFL-CIO (The power behind unionism in the USA) has lobbied Congress on three major issues of any importance to union members:
1. Oppose the North American Free Trade Agreement;
2. Oppose permanent normal trade relations with China;
3. Support drilling for oil in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

The unions lost every vote

The only two Democratic presidential candidates to vote with the unions on any of these issues – not all, but any – were Representatives Dick Gephardt and Dennis Kucinich
There is only one candidate for president who didn't vote for NAFTA, didn't vote for trade with China and supported drilling in ANWR. That candidate is George Bush.

AFL-CIO has endorsed Sen. John Kerry – who voted for NAFTA, voted for trade with China and voted against drilling for oil in Alaska. Skilled laborers will have to wait another day for "fair trade" and high-paying jobs in Alaska.

Special thanks must go to Anne Coulter for putting together some of the facts in this post.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20040226.shtml

By thirdeye (***)

Date 03-02-2004 17:07

Just a second. President Bush is for NAFTA (in fact he supports the expansion of NAFTA throughout the Americas) and he is for trade with China and Taiwan. Here is a site you might want to take a look at:

http://issues2000.org/2004/George_W__Bush_Free_Trade.htm

If you scroll to the bottom, you can select different past & future candidates and compare issues from each one.

By thirdeye (***)

Date 03-02-2004 17:16

Here is an adder that explains the purpose and function of the link I posted above. All of their sources are from newspapers, wire reports etc.

http://issues2000.org/about.htm

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-02-2004 16:14

Giovanni,
Aw Shucks, I used to put Milk and Cookies out for Santa every Christmas Eve. I had always wondered why Daddy had the milk mustache and the crumbs on his shirt. I guess next thing I'll find out is there isn't an Easter Bunny either. :)
John Wright

Once the prices for those cars rise they never fall. A quick glance back in the past will show this to be true. But we can't seem to lay off buying them long enough to make them drop the price where we can afford them. And we wonder why we have credit problems and debt.

By JTMcC

Date 03-02-2004 16:54

G.S.Cristi:

Your take on republicans vs. democrats is way, way over simplified, and wrong. Both parties have and continue to "act actively and directly on economy" and have for decades. And, some democrats are indeed socialists, and many openly so, others covertly : ).
I believe the last president to impose tariffs on steel in response to dumping practices was Ronald Reagan, in the 80's. As was mentioned, for complicated reasons. One factor being that for the sake of national security, ie to continue to be able to produce armored vehicles, ships, ordinance and other steel heavy products used in wartime, it is neccesary to maintain a base of experienced workforce, mines, shipping and plants that can be expanded if the need arises. Even if those plants are operating at a higher cost than those in, say, China, they are a serious national defense puzzle piece that we need to keep in place.
As far as the present rise in prices, it is IMO a simple matter of supply and demand. This is a topic that should be taught to a much greater extent in U.S. schools. Supply and demand, while a very simple concept, is extreemly complex in actual practice. If Americans (and others) had a better grasp of supply and demand, then the market for conspiracy theories would diminish greatly.

Regards,
JTMcC.

By dee

Date 03-02-2004 18:30

JT,
To say there are no forces pushing their interests is like walking in circles, hoodwinked. The EU has its agenda, China her own, and the money in the mid east can loosely be described as being held in the possession of others with their own interests. If any one of these forces were to apply it's weight to any critical market segment your outlook, and future, would likely be different.

Free trade is known to expose various vulnerabilities. We're told the advantage outweighs them. Nobody ever said it was "safe".
FDR was forced to compromise with some of those interests back in the early days of his administration... there is documentation. That is what we do and how poitics works- take it international and the flavor changes... add racism, nationalism, and religous bigotry to the point of self-destruction and it's open season on a global scale. Not everyone plays by all of the rules all of the time. Even without some contrived mystic conspiracy working its will slowly over 3000 years, such as you allude, the world is still what could be described in some respects as a dangerous place economically.

Lumping contrary opinion into a class where paranoia is presumed, or even subtly suggested, is a tactic of desperation... and a signal for caution.

It's probably better that economics is not part of the public education ciriculum- better left alone than poorly executed as most topics they teach.

Perhaps it would be cost-effective to mothball the entire industry as we did our Atlantic Fleet after WWII rather than go on subsidizing as we have in the past. It simply isnt efficient at protecting the interest you've cited, and some kind of effective change is called for.

Finally, I dont know Nixon was that responsible president, nor is it appropriate to point out the executive as the likely responsible party in our system of government... unless under executive order, laws and taxes must be the general consensus of the legislative branch- Congress- our senators and reprehensitives. It was for time frame. We have an erroneous habbit of blaming the president for acts which Congress commits; another symptom of a public education. (I avoided public education all my life, and as often apparent, I never attended private schools)

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 03-03-2004 01:14

Hi Dee!
Reprehensitives you say? Sometimes they are Reprehensible!!!
Well then what do you suppose we do about it?
Vote all of them out? I agree if every citizen did their DUTY!!!
(term limits might work to a certain extent depending on how they are implemented) I do'nt know what's better but, I do know that there are too many citizens in this country that do not vote and most of them complain about the issues afterwards.
Do'nt let your children attend public schools even if there's no way the parents can afford private schools that according to you are'nt much better? Are you suggesting homeschooling? In reality - how many people these days can afford to homeschool their children without working in order to pay the bills, put food on the table? How many parents know how to teach their children how to weld or how to fabricate a fuel injection rail or even design one???
Maybe I do'nt understand where you're coming from so please correct me if I'm mistaken. I'll respect your clarification if it's necessary.

If you're a democrat, some people label you as either liberal or socialist.
If you're a Republican, some people label you as either a hawk or religious zealot. If you're an independant some people label you as someone that's either confused or masquerading as someone else.
The same goes for our religious affiliations.
My point is that everyone assumes not to trust each other because of their political & religious affiliations and to me that is just plain ignorant!!!
In an election year, our true colors come out and let me tell you - They're not pretty!!! Then we have the AUDACITY to say to the rest of the world that our system is the most honest, has more integrity and the people here have more freedoms than everyone else?
Well then why were my original replies deleted from this post?

I can understand if I made remarks that included profanity or slander but, none of this was included in my original replies to this post!!
All I did was to defend the name of our commander in chief whether I agree with his policies or not!!! I think the last itme I checked, it was allright to disagree with someone else in this forum so long as one did'nt insult or offend someone else!!! The last time I checked, I believe it's not an insult to tell someone that they ought to be shamed of themselves for slandering someone or certain ethnicities!!!
Especially, if you had good intentions with regards to this forum!!!
Unforunately, I guess I'm incorrect according to other individuals that seem to disagree with me by ommiting my comments and not doing the same to other participants in this forum. It's too bad that most of the participants in this forum will not be able to read what I originally stated because of this form of censorship but, if you did then I hope that you'll agree that all I was doing was defending the name of our commander in chief who I happen NOT to agree with everything he does for US!!!
All I said to the individual that slandered the President of the United States of America and a certain race of people (Yes they are HUMAN like the rest of US) that this is a Welding forum - NOT a HATE forum!!!
I better go WELD so that I can at least say to myself that I united something!!! Free Trade works when It's Fair Trade!!!
Not when good decent hard working folks lose their jobs because of unfair trade practices!!! United we stand - Divided we fall!!!
I'm going to WELD and feel GOOD about it!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-03-2004 02:03

I thought your response to the use of the term that I remember as "Jewing" or something to that tone was appropriate however I also understand the use of some terms by individuals as a normal way of speech and not necessarily meant as a slander. Politically Incorrect ? Yes. Slander , only known by the individual.

I am sometimes guilty of this.

I don't know why your post was deleted but I thought it was a little odd. I wish I would have copied it to look at it to see what part was "in error"

Have a good day

GA

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 03-03-2004 03:42

I don't think there was anything wrong with your post. There was however lots to object to in the post it replied to. I think they just deleted the whole thread.
Bill

By thirdeye (***)

Date 03-03-2004 03:44

I think issues and emotions should go hand in hand with responsible discussion and respect for the opinions of others.

Thomas Paine wrote about people who only exercise democracy in comfortable situations like peaceful times, calling them “sunshine patriots”. I happen to enjoy another point of view, especially on sensitive issues, and I try my best to remain objective.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-03-2004 10:29

Hello SS,
I don't think I'd get too excited or even worry about your post being deleted. Dee and myself had a few "safety" discussions w/ links included that were deemed to have been placed in the wrong part of the forum (Where's Weldo), I suppose, and were deleted. I think the forum was trying to be diplomatic in telling us that the discussions concerning "safety" is something the forum doesn't want liability for at this time. Anyway, I agreed with you in standing up for the position of the "commander in chief ". We should by all means lift up this individual in prayer/thoughts, who ever "we the people" vote in. I've lived long enough to see presidents that I really didn't care for, but none the less, they are our presidents and deserve some respect of that position, even if we think they have disgraced the white house. I think maybe OFW is kinda young (at least seems that way to me) and got carried away with his/her expressions of his/her feelings of something that, as you said "didn't belong in a welding forum".
This is just a thought for discussion, Possibly the forum can email directly the individuals that they delete posts from and give a reason as to why the posts are being deleted or censored out of the forum.
John Wright

By SA-200

Date 03-03-2004 13:10

The Free Trade Agreement would of worked if it was balanced, we would buy 1 million dollars of your products and you buy 1 million of our products, all duty and tax free.... I wonder why Clinton didnt do it that way???? :)

By dee

Date 03-03-2004 17:43

SSBN,
I think you found a Freudian typo; I thought of that, sure... I meant to do that... yup... I think I'll leave it in though, at least somebody is reading the verbosity I submit.

Another point is that it's probably true most of us frequent this forum as a means of entertainment... and to some degree these issues we discuss about steel prices do relate to the industry, but I'm trying hard to avoid politics beyond addressing how it's perceived by those unfamiliar to our system, and the limited scope of how to address ths long-running steel issue; it seems now that Japan has relented others have begun to pursue it. Rather like a tag-team version of when Wal-Mart or HomeDepot moves into town.

My point about education was a simple one; dont read more into it than simple truth- I cut school a LOT and was of too humble of means to have had the benefits of top prep schools. I was, however, able to identify everything important I needed to know (except calculus- had I known the value of higher mathmatics I would have devoted more attention sooner- this is beyond our present scope- or should be)
The first, most important fact being the smell of fertilizer when one may encounter it, should be kept updated and accessable for frequent reference (particularly on election years) as the smell evolves with modern treatments and processes.

Throughout my life I made a point of identifying for myself the subjects I wanted to master. I discover now, having interviewed many, that better liberal arts colleges work hard to develop that quality in their students.
Lets go further if you wish, on a different forum, rather than diverting this thread much further... I end this thought with the statement that if the first ten students oyou meet on campus are asked to identify the "liberal arts" they probably could not- nor likely could ANY ten on campus... is something wrong with that picture?
I prefer to draw my own conclusions rather than to be told what to think and how to apply my mental talent. Think of what I might have contributed had I known and could describe why the area was below the sine, rather than merely where the curve was plotted... alluding back to calc, the responsibility carries some gravity.

Finally, if a loved-one asked you a question which could affect their life or future, and you knew little or nothing about the topic, what would you advise? Certainly you dont post weld advice based on mere fancy and speculation- even here you remain silent where it's appropriate. (HAhaHA! At least most of the time even if Keiko has something to say! LOL! :) btw, if you can talk to him discreetly he may shed some light- he seems like a fair and reasonable sort)
Why shouldnt ANY of us feel free to obstain from voting when we feel it's appropriate?

Finally, to your first question about what we should do, what I said earlier was to use what we have- lobby for our interests. Ever since the Whisky Rebellion we've generally gotten what we have demanded of our government... (gosh, that'll give foreigners the wrong impression) Not until we frame the question and present it can we get an answer.

Mr Crisi, you found a "button"! I've said before, there are two topics best left alone- one is politics and the other is women. What we need in this thread is some procedure for working in a hazardous environment!

Regards
d

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 03-04-2004 09:31

Hi Dee!
You never let me down when it comes to your rather elaborate and eloquent posts or replies even though I do'nt always agree with all of your views - I'll give you that!!! Btw I too like the freudian typo!

Steel prices like you mentioned is always a touchy issue! One that a few years ago led me to have a different understanding of the labor involved with it's production and how the corporations priorities seem to have alterior motives behind them.

Now that you mentioned calculus, I used to think that Sir Issac Newton had a "monopoly" on that form of math until I read about this relatively unknown and obscure individual genius although, well known amongst mathematicians and scientists of course.
Newton (who btw, also faired miserably when he first attempted to master Algebra very much like Einstein did afterwards before he came up with his theories of relativity which are are being revisited today by our current geniuses) got all of the credit for inventing calculus at the time when he published his work with the Royal Scientific Society.
Even though a German mathematician who I'm guessing his last name's correct spelling - Liebintz or something like that was working on another form or method of calculus around the same time (possibly earlier by a few years) and yet at the time was overlooked in recieving credit for his contributions which later on were adapted widely in the scientific and mathematic community. Liebintz did'nt get the appropriate recognition until after his death! Bottom line is that Newton had better connections in the Royal Scientific Society at the time... Too bad he spent more time with Alchemy which led to his eventual demise from breathing in the lead fumes. Maybe he should've spent more time smelling fertilizer!
Sir Issac Newton was also rather bored with school at first.
He spent more time in the English pubs when he first was sent to Cambridge by his family and friends until he realized that he had to get serious with his life... ("The Sorcerer's Stone" was the name of the book I read about Newton's biography)
It's funny what a hit on the noggin can do to someone's thought process... The gravity of it all!!! Inspiration and motivation comes in many forms!!!
Not a bad coinmaker (in Newton's later years as head of the Royal mint) either when he outwitted those counterfitters in merry old England at the time!!!

As far as Keiko is concerned -I'm going to exercise my 5th amendment right as a citizen of these United States! Out of respect of course!!!
Although, I did pose the question to him via e-mail already with no response as of yet...

I agree with you about abstaining to vote when it's appropriate but, if one decides not to get involved in the political process then one should not complain so much about the issues if they choose not to become a participant in the process that may eventually lead to change for the better.
For all of you not familiar with the infamous "Whiskey Rebellion" - it just so happened to take place here in Pennsylvania shortly after the "Father of our Republic" George Washington - a former rebel himself, decided to enforce the power of the newly formed federal government over states rights at the time. Taxation without representation - What a concept!!!
If we as a people spent more time & effort uniting ourselves and our resources to effectively lobby our so-called reprehensitives instead of bickering at each other then I agree with you that we could improve our chances of chasing out the special interests that so effectively influence & manipulate our reprehensitives in government today, once and for all! Well - maybe it sounds too "utopian" but, what the heck!!!
Maybe we ought to ask ANSI or OSHA to look into writing procedures for that (conversing in a hazardous environment within the realm of politics & women) also! What about the EPA? Yeah right!!!
Give me LIBERTY or give me DEATH!!! Do'nt TREAD on ME!!!
Always a pleasure Dee!!!
Professor Crisi, those statements did'nt originate in the state of Pennsylvania.
However, keep asking those questions because you can never learn too much about the way the people in the United States think about our principles and our rights or our ever changing views. I'm always learning something new about how we think!!!
Election years definitely bring out the passion in us!!! On top of that, it's a leap year!!! Go figure...
I think I'll go and WELD some more!!! I certainly need the practice with my mirror and "walking the cup"...

Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By dee

Date 03-04-2004 17:10

SSBN,
Welding is one way of "getting it together" (sorry the pun was too tempting, dont apply it to anything but a funnybone) Your use of the word "eloquent" is very charitable, and I wax appreciatively in humility. Logic behind the rhetoric is tested in the forum of differing opinion, thus ancient Greeks profitably applied two of the classic Liberal Arts.

I've had conversations with congressmen, some of whom admit that they cannot, and so do not, read their mail. Anthrax has also a part in that phenomenon. We're left with a government quite different from the one in which a president grew a beard at the suggestion of a little girl.
The Whiskey Rebellion was an armed revolt- I am not suggesting that or any extreme, (Heaven forbid! the FBI has probably read all the files on my computer by now!) but your neighboring state, NewJersey, more lately experienced a "serious" backlash when Governor Florio raised sales tax and extended it to cover other goods including toilet paper- the resulting toilet paper revolt had the white paper ribbon decorating his capitol for weeks. His administration ultimately relented, hid the tax as a "disposable product tax" or one of a similar specific name which was collected at a different level of distribution, and made it LOOK as if it bent to the will of the people, placating them.
Several phenomenon became evident; first, that the concession made by the Democratic administration was a deception, second, that united lobbying can be effective, and in retrospect some time afterward, that the increase in tax caused a decrease in total revinue- his 8% rate was later reduced back to 6% and total collections began to rise again due to increase in activity... to prove the overall premise upon which he built his economic plan all wrong despite his confident, compelling rhetoric to the contrary.

The polls wont serve to change anything; the rubber meets the road where the lobbyists lie, (or is it lye? perhaps they "lay" easily?) If we have to put together a brass band or stand under the Capitol banging pots and pans together until we're heard, our duty lay there more than behind a curtain casting a vote for people who dont even read our mail. CNN is running a series critical of free trade policy- (ironic considering Ted Turner's interests) do you think they'd turn down a spokseman from the AWS or other major industrial segment? If they did, wouldnt a competitor like Fox put them on O'Rielly or a similar show? Some of our representativs are good ones who only need to be able to justify doing the right by being shown a better plan. Lets at least give them that much.

Since I was in high school I always thought it would be possible to change the world. I'll feel better after I breathe into this paper bag a few times, hook my welder to each ear lobe and take a zap or two...

...seriously, a posted question has been left unanswered- how do we go about lobbying for our interests? I'm for defining them and going out to pursue them. I retain the right to do so. Who here wants to give up rights? I am aganst becoming undignified and sounding like an erratic crackpot.
Does this steel issue have bearing upon our industry, or does it not?

BTW I understand Newton redefined the term "hesitant", elevating it to redundant extremes as applied to his feelings about publication. I hold the opinion that in comparison L. was a pretender... just an opinion.

Regards
d

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 03-04-2004 23:13

Hil dee!
Well you know what has been said about opinions...
I'm sure that you also know that everyone's got one...
I would suggest you read the book titled "The Sorcerer's Stone" or any other legitimate readings that will document the historical significance of Leibniz's (correct spelling) place in the history of philosophy & mathematics... You'll eventually find out that he was no "pretender" at all...

As far as your interest in forming an effective lobbying effort in the Capitol is concerned, I agree with you and I believe there has been an ongoing attempt to do as you propose.
Forgive me for not being able to recall the gentleman's name but, If I remember correctly - this person was the previous head of the Hobart Institute of Welding Technology. Although I have'nt heard much of his efforts lately, I believe he was lobbying to raise the status of welders, fabricators involved in welding from being classified as "blue collar" workers to "gold collar" workers.
I think that the AWS "missed the boat" on this one...
Nonetheless, it was a valiant attempt unlike the present administration's attempt to reclassify certain workers in the service sector as part of the manufacturing sector in our economy!!! "Ishcabibble" I say to that maneuver!!!
Okay, so some of them (the ploiticians otherwise known as our reprehensitives) will not read our mail partly because of anthrax...
However, If we flood them with enough e-mail expressing not only our concerns but also our idea's, sooner or later they'll have to pay attention to us!!! If they choose not to, then we vote them out!!!
Lou Dobb's is one program I rarely miss and his relentlesss pursuit to inform the public about a variety of issues is admirable to say the least!!!
Outsourcing is something we all ought to be not only concerned about it, we also have to pressure our representatives (I agree that some of them are good ones) as they would like to be called - to take action on this issue ASAP before the government and any of the affiliated institutions themselves becomes victims of outsourcing!!! What's next? Here's a scenario that might lead us to take notice: The entire AWS staff has been laid off with the exception of the executives in order to run the organization more "efficiently" and at less cost - is the explanation for this sudden change in the organization.
The staff has been replaced via outsourcing the staff and all of the committees to another country!!! I wonder how the members would react to this??? Scary is'nt it??? Our most private personal informationis also being outsourced as I write about this issue!! Talk about scary!!! This is precisely why we must act on this issue by lobbying our elected representatives to make sure that this scenario NEVER happens and the same goes for any of our institutions that maintain our leadership in a variety of technologies in this world today... The AWS does lobby congress for our interests but, it's up to us as members to define what our interests really are in order to persuade the executive committee what we need to address as legitimate issues!!! "The only thing we have to fear - is fear itself" is a revealing message and too many of us fail to understand what this message really means or the context for which it was applied... We must overcome our fear of not being able to make a difference by expressing our dissent in the actions our governments or their corporate benefactors exercise on an almost daily basis by using our power to vote them out if necessary!!!
Hypocracy goes hand in hand with denial (No - it's not a river in Egypt)... Once one becomes a hypocrit, they end up denying it until the day they die when some of them admit their denial!!! The whiskey rebellion is an example of the hypocritical reaction our then newly formed government showed to the world as was the brutal occupation and eventual theft of the lands once belonging to the original indigenous inhabitants, not to mention the almost complete genocide of that race! The Americans Indians! Now they're laughing all the way to the bank!!!
The Spaniards committed almost identical autrocities shortly after their arrival also!!! I'm not going to get into slavery because it has manifested into more sophisticated forms to this very day!!!
These are some of the dark moments in human history that must not be repeated by admitting our shortcomings and our collective commitment not to make the same mistakes...

What do you think the American Revolution was? An armed revolt!!! The difference was that it was successful!!! I too am not saying that this is the only way to seek change or to get the attention of our leaders -ohhh nooo!!!
Our collective power to vote is our only legitimate weapon in the ongoing battles to change our situations for the better!!!
Beware of false prophets!!!

Steel prices are getting higher as are gas prices folks because our
administration and their corporate benefactors are nervous about losing this election so they gouge prices to get what they can before they lose control!!! Plain and simple! One does'nt need to know calculus to figure this one out... Welding, fabricating and metalworking is my form of stress relief so, I think I'll go weld some more!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run silent... Run Deep!!!