Economy

Date 03-20-2004 19:02

here in michigan (detroit)there have been quite abit of ppl closing down or laying ppl off.trying to find a job as a welder is pretty hard becouse for every 1 welding job there are 30 welders putting apps in.make it tough to get a job.i havent seen any rise in jobs lately.another thing is companys are paying alot less then they used to. you used to be able to get a job welding for at least $12/hr now its between $8 & $10 /hr .companys know there are alot of ppl out there needing jobs ,now that they know this they know ppl will work for less becouse they know the ppl are in a hard spot.they will look at the 30 apps pick the best and pay sh*t wages,why? becouse ppl need money and companys know its hard to get a job now adays.5 yrs ago when jobs where plentyfull companys knew they had to pay more becouse jobs where easy to get then and ppl would pass up a $9/hr job becouse they knew they could just apply somewhere else and get hired for more $ .another thing is more and more companys are going threw temp agancys,i think its so they dont have to pay insurance for the ppl that go threw the temp agency,most temp agencys either make ya wait 6 MO.to get insurance or there insurance is just not worth getting.its a shame to see how these companys are treeting ppl,but as long as jobs are hard to get they will keep scr*wing the general public out of money they well deserve.i have been looking for work for about 6 MO now and only had 2 places call me back(probably sent out over 100 apps threwout that time period)i even look at the yellow pages and get weld shop #'s i have about 42 places i call every 2 weeks and they all say there not hireing call back later in the month.they need to get rid of free trade so companys quit going to mexico(make the products in mexico,sell them in the USA this should not be happening)when bush raised the terrif off the metal about 12 companys went out of business becouse of it.well thats about all i have to say.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-20-2004 23:31

Well, you’re mad because we need to "get rid of free trade,"
This may appear a bit inflammatory, but it’s good to think about these things.

Most folks used to equate America with freedom. This includes the freedom to buy steel or anything else for that matter, from local folks or over seas. I don't want government telling me who I must buy from or punishing me with a tax of up to 50% or more if I choose to buy from somebody other than who the government wants me to buy from.

Today folks equate America with entitlements. Things like an expectation for health care, many politicians go as far as to say health care is a right. The U.S constitution gives us rather than entitlements, the *Liberty* to work hard for what we want and need, and to work for who we want. That same liberty is not extended to citizens who own businesses or corporations.

Even though America is someplace around 85% more productive than most of the 3rd world countries that some work is going out to (such as India and Mexico), and more than 40% more productive than Europe in manufacturing (we make more stuff per worker). It’s still hard to compete because employers (Corporations) must pay astronomical taxes to the government in addition to wages. The argument that work is lost because other countries have lower wages just doesn't float in most cases, simply because of American production.

It’s complicated. If government does not get involved in business than some corporations (sometimes big ones like Chrysler or an Airline) are going to die. But when Gov. does get involved, other businesses must suffer. Much changing of rules is done in the name of fairness or protection. But if the Country is based on freedom than these rule changes are counter to the foundational principals that allowed such productivity to occur in the first place.

By RMayerich Date 03-20-2004 23:46

I spent 28 years as a supervisor for National Steel. They stole my pension and most everyone else's. Upper management gave themselves bonuses. The president got a whopping bonus and went back to Japan.One week later, there was not enough money to pay bills, so declare bankruptcy and stiff all the vendors.

US Steel bought what was left for about a nickel on the dollar, and laid off most of the lower level managers.

I was told I was not qualified. Funny how that works, CWI/CWE didn't get me in the right spot.

Life is a lot better now. Do not have to listen to the BS or work shifts.

Rick

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-20-2004 23:53

Now to respond to Brian's question,

Well, having recently left the Airline industry I can say the economy/911 has had great effects. But let’s be clear about one thing. 911 did not force United Airlines into bankruptcy, that was only an accelerant. The Pilots work stoppages in the summer of 2000 virtually destroyed UAL's business travel market. Business folks won't fly on an airline that isn't dependable and business travelers don't forget, they have memories like elephants.

So the economy forced UAL into an ESOP (read 25% pay cut in exchange for stock) and the economy forced the bankruptcy which rendered that stock for all intents and purposes void. (Many machinist union members lost as much as $250,000 in stock value which can never be regained. About 20% of the workforce has been reduced since 9/11. Oh and I almost forgot, another round of pay reductions across the board. I think in the end the above problems, like in most other big corporations can be equally blamed on the big 3, poor economy, poor management, foolish union tactics. I'm not anti union now, I just recognize they have had some whopper mistakes over the last 20 years.

The good news is I bailed and am now working for a tech college and I can say things are looking up for entry level welders in my area. Local industry is on the phone with me constantly, asking if I have students who will meet their needs. I am seeing program graduates being offered wages ranging from $10-16 for those who can pass D1.1 exams in all position SMAW, GMAW, GTAW. I am surprised that some of the best money lately is going to folks who have process control understanding of GMAW in a manufacturing shop environment.

While there are many local industries that have gone bankrupt or left the area there are others who are growing because of innovation and excellence in the products they make. I very much enjoy sharing in the satisfaction of the folks I help win excellent jobs out their in what mo64 rightly identifies as a very competitive job hunting environment.

I think the economy, good or bad, cannot stop motivated people with good ideas and hard working folks who pitch in with them.

By mo64

Date 03-21-2004 02:53

as soon as the trade agreement came along the jobs went out the window.that led to one of the big 3 takeing there business to mexico and when that happend all the small shops that would do other work for the big company loose there jobs, becouse the ppl that where giveing the small shops there jobs are in mexico, so now all the lil shops got to lay ppl off makeing even more ppl not have money to spend on cars and all that,hence makeing the econimy shi*y.off the subject i hate when ppl who have been working for the last 5 yrs tell me it isnt hard to get a job(what do they know,they aint out there trying to get one)

By smity

Date 03-30-2004 00:48

Do not get me wrong things have never been that good here in Western N.C. This is good motivation to move on to greener pastures. And learn new things. I think Lawrence is right about motivated people with good ideas can go along way. Fortunes were made doing the great depression as they are now.

By LarryL

Date 03-21-2004 03:52

Here in California manufacturing companies are suffering just as they are in many other states. California not only has all of the usual problems that beset American industry but also many that are exaggerated in this state. For example, the workmens compensation premiums are unbelievably high. Some companies - e.g., those judged to be in more hazardouse pursuits, such as roofing buildings - may pay as much as 75 cents to a dollar in work. comp. premiums for every dollar of salary paid. When one adds to that the higher taxes, higher costs of environmental compliance, greater litigation costs, and higher fees of all kinds, it's no wonder that companies of all kinds are fleeing our state. Our state used to have 6 or 7 auto assembly plants. I believe that we now have only one - if that one hasn't been pulled out of the state by now. Just about every other week the newspapers will report a large company closing up and leaving our area of Central California. Some of the jobs are moving to other states and some overseas.

The problem is not as simple as just the impact of NAFTA or just low wages in other countries compared to the U.S.A. Nor can the problem be attributed to one man, G.W. Bush, as Kerry would have us believe. The loss of manufacturing jobs has been due to many factors that gradually and insidiously have been eroding the competitiveness of our country: high taxes, high cost of labor and employee benefits, high cost of tort litigation, high cost of utilities - especially natural gas, high cost of environmental impact compliance, etc. For a rundown on some figures that show how these factors have made the U.S.A. no longer competitive among the world's manufacturing countries, take the time to read this article, at:
http://www.nam.org/s_nam/bin.asp?CID=201715&DID=227525&DOC=FILE.PDF

By mo64

Date 03-21-2004 16:00

so why didnt(at least in michigan)the company move untill nafta was inefect?

By thcqci

Date 03-22-2004 14:03

At our company, we had a layoff for the first time in 15 years. Causes were a combination of internal management problems, incorrect bidding of jobs costing company money, high steel prices adding to mis-bidding, detailing and engineering problems, low performance levels and lack of urgency by shop floor personnel, along with several other organizational factors. As a result of the layoff and tougher times, our shop has gotten lean and mean. Some (but not all) laid off were single skilled (or less) and were dragging company with their performance anyway. Some were a true loss. Welders, fitters, painters and laborers were affected. One casualty was my QC inspector which increase my workload just as everyone else. But we will survive as we reorganize and re-direct our goals.

As far as the expanded topic addressed above, it is hard to add much to what Lawrence said. I will stand in line to criticize President Bush for the steel tariff decisions. Government interference in free trade is rarely a good thing. That is hard for some people to understand. They want the government to save "their jobs". If I eventually lose my job, I will find another. Getting and keeping a job is like climbing a rope. It takes effort to climb, it is easy to slide down if you get complacent and it difficult (and not overly profitable) to stay in one place for too long. In my past, I have taken the effort to improve my skills and make myself marketable to several different types of employers. I was not (am not)satisfied with my current status because the marketplace is always looking for improvement. It cost me $$, time away from my family, lack of sleep, and numerous other costs. But I prepared myself (and am still seeking to improve myself) to always have skills that would be marketable to a potential employer. Not all of my marketable skills are steel industry related. And I refuse to blame my lack of planning or perhaps poor decisions in the past for any woes that may occur in the future. The steel fabrication industry has always been a field where there were fluctuations in job opportunities. If I did not want to accept that, then I should have made different choices, like not getting into the steel industry or finding a way to get out of it. I don't have anyone to blame for my choices but myself. If this whole steel thing goes south, then I should have made better choices earlier in life and gotten into a different field. In this great land of opportunity, there is no excuse for someone who exerts a little effort to ever miss a meal.

As far as "our jobs" being shipped overseas; THEY ARE NOT OUR JOBS! The employer owns those jobs and he has the right to give those jobs to whoever has the skills and an acceptable cost ($/hr + benefits) to allow him to make the profit he desires. His company. His investment. His gain or loss. His decision who he hires and where he finds those employees. If he decides to use less skilled people at a lower cost in a different location, his decision. If one thinks it is so easy to own and run a company, then why are they not running their own company instead of working for someone else? There are many who complain about "their job" going somewhere else, yet if they see a job opening that pays better or has better benefits, they do not hesitate to move their skills to a new job to improve their own profitability. If you can move your skills to improve your profitability, why then do you complain if the company decides to do the same with the job? One must just be careful not to set such a high cost on their skills that there is not an employer willing to pay for those skills at that cost. Face it, your employer owes you nothing! He does not exist to provide you a job. He does not exist to provide medical insurance, retirement, etc. He exist to make his investors a profit. That is the way the marketplace works.

I have a sign on my wall at work. Life's Rules. Rule #1 is "Life is not fair. Get used to it!" Sometimes unfair things happen. That is life. I have chosen to make lemonade out of life's lemons instead of just complaining about the sour taste. Life is to short to waste time with a crinkled face.

Now I gotta get to work or I will be looking for a new job!

By MBlaha

Date 03-29-2004 03:14

It is unfortunate that, that is what the Blue collar, and now affecting the ranks of White collar, person, bear in mind thcqci, the word PERSON, not robot, tool, etc. has become. We have become an expense to our employers. Not a commodity.

Mike

By thcqci

Date 03-29-2004 14:45

Labor is now and always have been a commodity. They are just another component on the ledger sheet the business owner uses to conduct business. Some owners have a more personal relationship with their employees and others do not. As I said above, the relationship the employee chooses to have with his employer is easily severed when the employee sees someone down the street paying higher wages or offering better perceived benefits, so why do we complain when the employer does the same thing? Why should he have to be loyal to his employees when they are so easily unloyal to him. That is not to say there are not many loyal relationships on both sides of the fence out there, but the rules of the game has evolved, due to many factors, and times have changed. Very few people will start with an employer in their 20s and retire there at 65 in this day and time.

Right now I wear a blue shirt with a white collar. ½ my time is spent performing QC duties, the other ½ is spent performing QA duties. I am well aware my services may not be deemed necessary at this company in the future. As I said above, I have not limited myself to one single skill or even in a single field. In fact, there are enough clubs in my bag, God willing, to keep food on my children's plate well into the future because I did not put all my eggs in one basket. And I am continuing to put more clubs in the bag. I will be valuable to someone. If not locally (I already drive 100 mile round trip every day to my job 2 counties away - not exactly local), then I will have to choose whether I move to where the job is or change vocations. I could even choose to start my own business. That is the way the market system is currently working. I can either complain or adapt. I am not lucky or fortunate; I worked my butt off to get myself in this position.

By boilermaker (**)

Date 04-06-2004 13:13

the fact of the matter is, regardless of what manufacturing sector anyone may talk about, THE COMPANIES MOVING FACTORIES OVERSEAS WILL STILL CHARGE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THE SAME AMOUNT, IF NOT MORE THAT WHAT THEY WERE CHARGING THEM BEFORE THEY MOVED THE FACTORY OVERSEAS!!!!! It's total B.S!!!! I don't mind paying good money for something that's quality, but I have a difficult time paying good money for something that some poor rice picker made...Getting no fair wage, no nothing! I don't want to play the whining union guy, but come on people, let's be realistic here...how many thousands of illegals come across our border every day???? How many of those people who probably can't speak a word of english are poisioning our job market by working for next to nothing because they don't want to be deported...It's a damn shame that we allowed a situation such as this to become, but it's not the people in this forum that really let it happen, it's the lazy, no-good, S.O.B. sitting on the couch, watching T.V. all day, collecting welfare, and not doing a damn thing to get at job...The "LAZY AMERICAN". Who is too good for a landscaping job, or being a janitor in an office, or whatever job may not be easy or pays great, but it's a damn job!

I'm sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now...
Regards,
JW

By smity

Date 03-26-2004 22:30

I work for a local industrial construction company. With out getting into politics I will tell you about Western NC. At lest 90% of industry is gone. Some countys unemployment rates are in the high 20% range. What is still here is not going to have much work done. There was about 5 construction companys in the area that did pipe work. Two of them went out of bussiness another changed hands and started working out of town. The company I work for does mostly commercal work now, hospitals, schools and colleges. Mostly all gov. funded work. That will not last forever, colleges usally have a 10-20 year cycle for major funding. We still do some paper mill work for the two local mills, one of which has not turned a profit for the past 3 years (the single biggest employer in the area). We also do small jobs for the local power plant. But even they are cutting back. There shut downs have been shorter.

By cutter220 (*)

Date 03-29-2004 14:55

well atleast we still got the chance and freedom of winning the lottery.hardy har har.You should be glad you are not in a country like africa or one in the middle east and be tortured and having your wife be raped on a daily basis.Let's be glad.The figures the first guy said about 8-10 dollars an hour,that's about right for the average rent-a-welder but certified gas line/pipe welders around here(texas) make 20-30 bucks an hour.

By mo64

Date 03-30-2004 01:24

the way its looking right now is if you have to little experience no one will hire you,and if you have to much experience no one will hire you.

By bmaas1

Date 04-06-2004 13:59

I just heard on the news the other day that the company that makes the little red wagon, "Radio Flyer" based in Chicago is closing their doors and moving operations to China. An American symbol being made overseas. How about that.

Brian J. Maas

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-06-2004 14:32

Hi Brian,
I heard that too. I had one of those (american made) when I was growing up. I thought that was sad, to see that another American icon is being produced somewhere else in the world.
John Wright

By ratboy69 (*)

Date 03-31-2004 01:50

Well, the writing is on the wall. Start thinking about getting retrained in another field. If you're still lookin' at trades tell the young uns to become electricians not welders. The immigrants coming into this country will literally price you out of the market. Joe Mexican will work for 8 dollars/hr. 24/7. The little Vietnamese down the road lives in a house with 15 other Vietnamese and will work for $7.50/hr. You better adapt quickly or you're going to have a rude awakening in very short order. Regards,, ---John

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 03-31-2004 10:41

Hi ratboy69!
Ischkabibble! No - it's not a curse word or is this phrase meant to be offensive!!!
It just means that I ca'nt let myself give up that easy to the so-called status quo! In this case we're talking about the notion that we might as well give up competing for our jobs; I will not settle for that and you should not either!!!

I apologize for being so blunt but, one cannot become successful in any area in life with a "defeatist" perception that the odds are all stacked against them and that one should discourage others who are interested in pursuing their chosen field because of their own perception that there is no future in that given trade!!! Remember that if a "young un" or "youngster" or "kid" decides to chose a trade of their choice, chances are, that the beginner will NOT stay being just a welder!!! This is especially true if this person does'nt settle or give up by accepting everything that is offered to them and rationalizing that they will not not get any further in their own self worth - meaning, not attempting to learn more, improve their skill level, or earn valuable experience in as many areas within their field so that they can take what the worked with, and gained to another level which would increase their chances of earning better wages or even start their own business if they choose...

Had I or many other individuals that frequent this forum or anyone else that has had some level of success for that matter, decided long ago to give up at the start of their careers (No! It's not just a job!!!) or to listen to every person that conveyed a similar opinion then, NONE of us would've advanced ourselves by expanding our knowledge base, gaining a diverse array of experience, continuously seek to explore all of the possibilities available to us, applying what we learned & experienced into future situations and therefore, increasing our value by never giving up in improving ourselves, then none of us would be where we are today!!! If this were the case, then this industry as a whole, would've ceased to exist a long time ago!!!

I can look back and honestly say that I DEFINITELY make more money than I did when I first started out in what began as learning a trade, only to end up becoming a very rewarding career... How did the transition occur from learning a trade to pursuing a career? For me, I convinced myself from the very beginning that there were just too many different possibilities, and opportunities out there to pass up and I was HUNGRY TO LEARN MORE!!! How did I get that hungry? By being exposed to GREAT mentors and educators that did not give up on me!!! They told me in the beginning: "The moment you give up or settle on your capability or potential for improvement, it's the moment you'll regret for the rest of your life when you're old and tired". Well - I'm getting old (I still think young) and tired but, I have no regrets!!! I also do'nt believe everything that's reported in the news or by some surveys or polls!!!

No one should think that life must always be fair because in reality, it is'nt!!! I went through a Liver transplant,had to self administer daily injections of interferon while I was working until I could no longer do so in order to slow down the progression of end stage liver disease, was permanently disfigured in the face as a result of an assault (mugging) coming out of a subway station from work which also resulted in contracting (at the time - they called it non-A non-B hepatitis) hepatitis C because of the blood transfusion I needed in order to save my life & eventually led to the need of a liver transplant, fell more than 30 feet down a missile tube (staging collapsed) and broke my humerous bone (blessed by the fact that it could've been worse), went through numerous rejections in seeking employment, (it still happens today) came from a broken home, was told that I would'nt amount to anything because I was either lefthanded or because I was hispanic but, NEVER did I once let any of that STOP ME!!! I could stay on SSDI (I had to be on it more than once) for the rest of my life if I wanted to but then again, that would mean giving up and I refuse to do so!!! I'm not saying that I'm better than anyone else -oh no!!! I'm just saying that I did'nt, nor do I intend to settle or give up because of any situation that may limit or hinder my own progression at any given time!!!

When I started out in this "trade" - I was making $2.50 an hour (some of us started out making even less)! Now that's a long way from what I'm capable of earning today by about 10 to 15 times! How did I get to this level? By pushing myself beyond what I thought I was capable in advancing my career!!! Not by letting or making up excuses for settling or accepting my limitations at the time and giving up all hope in improving myself, or limiting what I was capable of learning or earning!!! At the present time of course, I recieve a fraction of that from disability but, I still manage to live a somewhat comfortable life because, I learned how to adapt, improvise and overcome!!! As my health improves, my yearning to get back to work is intensifying... In other words, I'm taking the steps to improve my situation and, even if they are baby steps, I know that I'm not standing still!!! I'm moving foward so, do'nt stand still otherwise, you'll become deadwood!!! Somebody talked about the meaning of the word grit on another thread and it was interesting when someone mentioned the word grit based from the title of the movie: "True Grit" and it is definitely in the context that I could certainly relate to...

I fell in love with welding in fact, just about everything associated with welding and would not still be involved in welding if I did'nt enjoy what I'm doing!!! So, for those of you that do'nt like what you're doing and are'nt willing to sacrifice time and effort to improve yourselves in this field,or unwilling or unable to find joy in what you're doing then by all means, find something else that you'll enjoy doing!!! However, if you like what you're doing and want to make more money in what you're doing for a living, then I have six words for you: CHANGE YOUR SITUATION & NEVER SET LIMITS!!! If you're not willing to do this - then you'll end up being a very miserable person so, start making some REAL changes in improving your LIFE!!!
Oh yeah, I almost forgot - replace your fears with FAITH!!!
Most of all, NEVER GIVE UP - NEVER LET ANYTHING STOP YOU!!! Take it from me, the journey is worth it!!!
Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By LarryL

Date 03-31-2004 13:46

Yours is an inspiring story, SSBN! Your kind of hard work, persistence, and striving to improve yourself are the qualities that made the U.S.A. a great country. We need to raise generations of people like you and turn away from the misconception that government can and should do everything for its people. Otherwise, our country will continue heading in the direction of the dumps. May your health continue to improve so that you can go back to doing the kind of work you love to do.

By mo64

Date 04-04-2004 05:16

ill say this.every one that makes alot of money now didnt when they first started out.i feel giveing up on something you like to do(welding) because someone will do it cheeper is crap.if that were the case no one would get paid big bucks after gaining experience.ill also say this once you get that experience it will be harder to find a job because some companies dont want to pay for the experience.why throw all that experience down the drain because the market is slow?some of you guys make it sound easy to just jump up and start in a new career.i think maybe its because you forgot what it is like trying to get that job with 0 experience.maybe you did get the job right off the bat with 0 experience but it dosent work that way for everyone.i have had ppl that have worked for the last 6 yrs or so tell me its easy to get a job.how would they know they were woking when the econimy took a dump.not trying to be a dic* or anything but for any of you ppl that are like that.when ya get layed off put a few apps into places with the last job section blank or saying mc donalds or something along that line.then tell me how easy it is getting ppl to want to hire you knowing they will have to train ya.i was one of the lucky ones my dad tought me how to weld so i put down home welder for how many years i welded for ppl(friends).thats the only way i got a shop to hire me and with my dad stoping by there to give me good reference.i loved welding and i worked hard for it.when my friends told me not to worry about welding because they wanted to do other things(like hang out)i welded anyway and now when i can get a job doing it i make a decent liveing.and guess what my friends wish they knew how to weld so they could make what i make and not have to work at the local mc donald or what ever.what im trying to say is try hard at what you want to do and do what ya like to do and you will rise to the top.just think you may think the guy at mc donalds has a crapy job but he might think its the best thing ever and if he sticks to it he will manage it oneday and be happy doing it.

By vonash

Date 04-05-2004 17:54

It's called "the joining process" nowadays. I can make good buck making sure two ice cubes stick together; if I have to.
Regards,
Vonash

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-05-2004 20:37

??????

By bmaas1

Date 04-11-2004 00:59

Well I've gotten a lot of point of views on this post and I thank you all. Being unemployed for the last 6 months can be real trying. I could have went on the road and made good money, but as you all know that makes life harder with a family. Something will come around it always does. Just have to be patient I guess. Gone are the days where you can work for a company and retire after 20 or 30 years at the same company.

Brian . Maas