Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Minimum fillet weld conflict
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-23-2004 20:07
I have a question regarding the minimum fillet weld sizes. We have columns in the contract that the engineer has full pen'd the flanges of the column to the base plate, but the webs he calls for a 1/4" fillet.

Herein lies my question....

1) In the AISC's publication Manual of Steel Construction LRFD Third Edition there is a chart(Table J2.4 on page 16.1-54) that gives the minimum fillet weld sizes based upon the *thickest* part joined(base plate). [Makes for larger fillet weld sizes than we furnished]

2) And in the AWS D1.1:2002 paragraph 5.14 Minimum Fillet Weld Sizes, states The minimum fillet weld sizes, except for fillet welds used to reinforce groove welds, shall be as shown in Table 5.8 Note 1 which states that for low hydrogen processes, "T" equals thickness of the *thinner* part joined(column web)...[Makes for fillet weld sizes like we furnished]

Which chart would you recommend using if the job is almost completely erected and is welded per AWS D1.1:2002 Table 5.8? I know the engineer called for 1/4" fillets in the contract drawings, but.....
John Wright
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 03-23-2004 20:34
That is a very good question. To tell you the truth, I always took those 2 charts to be the same and never noticed one was based upon thicker and the other based upon thinner. I would go with the fabrication drawings that were approved by the Engineer. They probably agree with D1.1. Contact the AISC Steel Solution Center for some advise.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-23-2004 20:41
Table 5.8 can be for the Thicker part joined or the Thinner part joined, depending whether you use low-hy or not. or whether you use a qualified procedure with non low-hy. But the AISC's book doesn't describe which way depending on low-hy, only that the Thicker part joined to be the deciding factor.

We are using prequalifieds with low-hy processes and preheat according to Table 3.2.
John Wright
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-23-2004 20:37

How do your contract documents (purchase order and job specifications) read with respects to the Code? Do they allow the Code to take precedence over them?

I prefer to see a pre-fabrication meeting where contract concerns, areas requiring clarification, and Vendor identified exceptions can be resolved by the Assigned Engineer (in writing or in follow-up documents)
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-23-2004 20:52
Well, I know where you are coming from, but I never get invited to those kick-off meetings. I see all this "after" the job is sold. This came up today when one of the detailers called and asked me a question about minimum fillet welds. And as far as Table 5.8 goes, we have met the minimums except for 4 columns that we can fix the detail sheet on and we are fine(welder put too much down, and they are actually 5/16), but as far as the paper trail, if we have to go by the AISC's Table, the welds "on paper" are not large enough to satisfy that Table and someone will have to go verify exactly every weld size in the field to make sure enough was put at both sides of the webs. I would think the contract drawings stating 1/4" at the web covers us, but I'd just like to have it right regardless whether the engineer made a slip of the pen or not. I thought the AISC gave AWS precedence over the welding issues, but I don't know that for sure.
John Wright
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-23-2004 21:13
I read in the preface on page viii of the AISC's book that "the Welding information, including the prequalified welded joint tables, has been updated to for consistency with AWS D1.1-2000".

on page 16.1-52 J2. Welds
"All provisions of AWS D1.1, apply under this specification, except the provisions applicable to Tubular Structures, which are outside the scope of this specification, and except that the provisions of the listed AISC LRFD specification Sections apply under this Specification in lieu of the cited AWS Code provisions as follows:"
It lists several AISC specs in lieu of AWS except there is no mention of the AISC Table J2.4 in lieu of anything. Skips right over that table.

So, do you take that to say that AWS Table 5.8 carries the weight over the AISC Table J2.4?
John Wright
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 03-24-2004 12:42
I would take D1.1 over LRFD.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-24-2004 13:03
Thanks for everyone's replies,
I think we are OK as long as the drawings match what we have in the field. The only thing we need to do is to fix the shop drawings on the 4 columns (with webs over 3/4" thick) effected to reflect the amount of weld we actually have and that it is according to the minimums listed in Table 5.8. I received my copy of D1.1:2004 this morning and I looked to make sure that the table or notes have not changed from the 2002 edition.
John Wright
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 03-24-2004 14:32
John, take a look at J2. Welds, the section you have been dealing with. The opening sentence says D1.1 applies except for the identified provisions. The LRFD references to D1.1 -2000.

Offhand, I would say go with the contract specs and drawings you have, so that you and your shop do as directed. The detailer should make the engineer aware of the discrepency, who should determine if the welds need to be larger or not. Of course, that means a change order. Likely the engineer will determine the web has enough weld for a column base plate, particularly where the flanges are full-pen. (Not saying that is the correct approach, just that it is what commonly happens)

Chet Guilford
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-24-2004 14:37
Chet, you see it (see my post up above[Mar 23 @ 16:13]) the way I did and I was just looking for some assurance that I wasn't going off half cocked and reading it to say what I wanted it to say.
Thanks for your reply,
John Wright
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Minimum fillet weld conflict

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill