Welding 304 to 316 GTAW process

Date 06-15-2004 16:54

The only time you would use 316L filler material is if you are welding 316 to 316. If it's 316 to 304 you would use ER308L filler material

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-15-2004 20:46

http://www.jwharris.com/welref/techguide/alloy_for_stain_steel/filler_metal/

This link to JW Harris says that 309 or 316 would be a suitable choice for filler if welding 304 to "*309*"(edited - I meant to type 316 instead of 309).
John Wright

By M-Squared (**)

Date 06-16-2004 12:14

If it was me, I would probable use the ER309 weld wire. The reason for this decision is based on the Schaeffler Diagram. A quick look at the diagram using the ER316 wire shows that the final weld metal ferrite content would be in the range of 2-3%. Typically if the Ferrite number is below 4%, this might indicate a microstructure in which low-melting point compounds may be formed at the grain boundaries, and the weld will be prone to hot cracking.

Looking at the ER308 weld wire, the final weld metal ferrite content would fall very close to the 10% ferrite line. Typically, welds with Ferrite numbers at or above 10% have reduced corrosion resistance and can be susceptible to the formation of sigma phase at high temperatures.

When using the ER309 weld wire the predicted amount of ferrite would be very close to the 5% ferrite line, which would indicate a sufficient amount of ferrite to prevent hot cracking.

The calculation were run assuming a 60% Dilution from the wire, and 40% from the base metal.

Hope this helps.

Mark

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 06-16-2004 12:35

I agree with M-Squared (ER309) although I don't see why ER316 couldn't be used aside from it be more expensive. I would also agree that ER308 could be used although ER309 seems to be the more widely accepted filler for joining alloys of different compositions together. Jim; what's your reasoning on why ER316 shouldn't be used?

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 06-16-2004 14:56

Because this is the standard in the industry. UTP, Fluor & TIC charts show this to be the case. All the wps's that I have from Fluor and TIC have a reference chart attached to them. The reference charts are part of the wps. Why not say you can use ER320, ER321, ER347, or ER410? Look at QW-404.5 and QW-420.1 in Sec. IX.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 06-16-2004 16:57

Hate to disagree with you Jim and mean no disrespect by it but UTP, Fluor & TIC charts hardly constitute "the industry" as a whole.

As for your reference to QW-404.5 and QW-420.1... "A numbers and P numbers" perhaps I fail to see your point; is it that under ASME IX an engineer would be permitted to use ANY F6, A8 filler with ANY P1-P11, P4x, etc.? Even if permitted under ASME IX I don't know of many engineer's that would be willing to specify an ER320, ER321, ER347, or ER410 filler for welding 304 to 316 unless there were special circumstances for doing so.

I'll stand by my decision of seconding M-Squared on ER309 for this particular application.

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 06-17-2004 01:12

OKAY, SO IF THE WELDING PROCEDURE WAS QUALIFIED USING ER308L YOUR SAYING YOU CAN JUST CHANGE TO A DIFFERENT FILLER MATERIAL. I'M SAYING WHY NOT USE ANY OF THOSE LISTED UNDER THE SAME F#? THE REASON YOU CAN'T IS FOUND IN SEC. IX UNDER ESSENTIAL VARIABLES, A CHANGE IN FILLER MATERIAL IS A ESSENTIAL VARRIABLE. ALL I'M SAYING CONSERNING INDUSTRY STANDARDS IS I HAVE BUILT CHEM. PLANTS AND POWER HOUSES WITH THESE COMPANIES, WE WELD ALOT OF SCH 10 SA312/304 S.S. WHEN WELDING 304 TO 304 WE USE ER308L. NORMALLY ER309L IS USED IN A P1 TO P8 CONFIGURATION. THE CHART I MENTIONED IS PUT TOGETHER FOR THAT REASON SO YOU WILL WELD WITH THE RIGHT FILLER MATERIAL. I HAVE SEEN THIS CHART WITH FLUOR, BECHTEL, TIC, UTP EBASCO. IF YOU WOULD LIKE I COULD FAX YOU THE CHART I'M REFERING TO.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 06-17-2004 12:16

Jim;

No need to get uptight. What I am saying is it is the Engineers decision if he (or she) should decide to use something other than the ER308L specified on the WPS. As for the essential variable part, the variable to which you refer would allow the engineer to utilize ANY F6 filler...... the A Number (separate variable) would also have to be considered by the competent engineer. By the way, I too have worked for Bechtel, Fluor, Westinghouse and other "big" name companies and have also built coal and nuclear powerhouses and worked in a wide variety of O & G and defense applications. The chart you reference came from an older version of either the ASME Code or ASTM (can't remember which) and it is a very good reference tool but should not be used to take the place of engineering judgment.... I guess we've had some pretty good discussion in this thread but have probably beat this issue into the dirt by now! :)

By sparx

Date 06-16-2004 18:56

I am just going to respond with a quick answer....308 or 316 filler rod for welding 304 to 316. doesn't matter which one

By sparx

Date 06-16-2004 19:21

I guess I could elaborate.....Lincoln's Procedure Handbook of Arc welding- thirteenth edition- page 7.2-4 table 7-17.
handy chart for "typical filler metals for dissimilar metal joints in austenitic stainless steels".

the typical mechanical properties for 308L and 316L weld metal are the same at 82,000 tensile and 41% elongation

hope this helps.....

By swnorris (****)

Date 06-17-2004 12:24

Hi All,

Both Type 304 and Type 316 are austenitic stainless. What distinguishes Type 316 from Type 304 is the addition of molybdenum to Type 316 of up to a maximum of 3%, which increases its resistance to corrosion. In the AWS Welding Handbook, "Metals and Their Weldability", Volume Four, Seventh Edition, it states that Types 308, 309, and 316 are austenitic filler metals, and adds that Type 316 electrodes are commonly used for weld overlays. It further states that the deposited weld metal composition should nearly match the base metal composition when welding austenitic stainless to themselves. The recommended filler metal chart shows Type 308 electrodes for Type 304, Type 347 electrodes for Type 304L, and Type 316 electrodes for Type 316, 316L, and 316H.

By andy

Date 06-17-2004 12:27

Couldn't resist this one.
ASM Metals Handbook Vol 6 8th edition (the only one I have to hand at the moment) recommends 308 or 316 page 253 Table 8. Probably the same table as suggested by Sparx.

BS 4677 suggests several different weld metals (I won't list them) including 308 and 316. It contains the advice: differing grades of austenitic stainless steels may be welded without unde difficulty. However many combinations of steel types may give rise to service difficulties in corrosive or high temperature applications. The carbon level of the base material makes a differecnce too (my words) BS 4677 says: The combination of low carbon grades with unstabilized grades is not recommended.

The posts regarding ferrite levels are relevant - and this needs to be taken into account as outlined by M-Squared.

Hey, and Jim... no need to shout.

Peace and love.

By Abdul Salam Date 07-16-2018 19:38

Dear Seniors,
I am looking for some documentation regarding the welding of 304 to 316. Specifically which type of filler rod is prefered. give me detailes with all refferences.

Regard
AB Salam

By 803056

Date 07-16-2018 20:13

Several references have already been listed.

Al

By SACHINM Date 07-18-2018 06:19

GREAT THREAT