CWI

By fbrieden (***)

Date 06-14-2004 20:13

Mr. Hughes,

May I submit a resume' with verifiable experience and credentials?

Fran Brieden AWS CWI #01010151

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 06-14-2004 20:33

[deleted]

By fbrieden (***)

Date 06-14-2004 21:00

Perhaps I should have been more descript. I am Level II PT and MT. I have been in Quality Control and Inspection for companies such as Ingersoll-Rand's Turbo Division, United Technologies-Elliott Corporation, and other smaller companies. I have been trained according to their particular requirements, and have developed Inspection Training programs for compaines as an independent contractor. I also know the difference between Process Piping and Power Piping codes, as well as ASME Section IX and ABS specifications.

By fbrieden (***)

Date 06-14-2004 21:31

In my haste to reply, I neglected to mention that I have been involved with welding for the last 23 years and am certified AWS D1.1, ASME Section IX (6G). My current position as a Welding Instructor requires I maintain these certifications.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 06-15-2004 14:02

With all due respect, I didn't see a "question" in your original post. I assumed you were simply venting about what's bothering you, and I am sure most all of have seen the same things you have.
I took Fran Brieden's response as trying to be helpful to you and didn't think it deserved a harse response. But that is just my opinion, I'm sure you have good reason to be upset.

Your issue with untrained inspectors is valid. I think the biggest problem is from inspectors who misrepresent their experience and knowledge. It is frustrating to hire someone who you believe to be qualified and then find out they are not. A huge waste of time and money!

It has been said for a long time that CWIs ought to undergo more training than simply how to pass the test. Of course, we all have to start somewhere, we don't start out with knowledge and experience. I believe the biggest obstacles are that the welding industry is so varied that it is difficult to decide just what training an inspector should have. My background is bridgework and structural steel. I am not savvy in boilers and pressure vessels, and other areas, and I don't represent myself that way. I don't think I should be excluded from having my CWI certification for that reason. And I wouldn't want to be excluded from employment simply because I am a CWI.

Naturally, if AWS "refines" the CWI categories, prices will have to go up to cover administration. But if that makes sense, then maybe it should be looked at. Of course we do have the complaint process where we can report unethical CWIs. But I have never seen that happen so I don't know if it really does any good.
In the meantime, it might help to send the complaints to AWS and make suggestions on how to improve the program. I don't think one letter will do much but if enough people say the same things.......

Other than that, I hope today is a better one for you.

Chet Guilford

By fbrieden (***)

Date 06-16-2004 03:23

Mr. Guilford,

Thank you for your professionalism.

Fran Brieden

By KAJUN1

Date 06-14-2004 21:27

When you go to the classes for CWI's, the first thing they tell you is that they will TEACH YOU TO PAST THE TEST. I've had the same problem as you. The client here won't let me hire anyone unless they have long background in welding & construction, no NDE background. Over the past 6 yrs. here I've used about 15 different inspectors & half of them won't be back. It's a very big problem & seems like no one cares as long as they're paying in the dues.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 06-14-2004 23:29

I have seen some of that same myself. In my opinion the classroom training should NOT be performed right before testing. Many people have been trained to pass the test with NO idea how to apply what they have learned in the class.

I have not actually sat through a CWI class however I have taken my original and 9 year renewal with people that have and there is a TREMENDOUS variation in the level of knowledge as it applies to actual real world work.

In my opinion the CWI program is more of a money maker for AWS than a vehicle for verification of an individuals experience and ability.

A modified test with essay type questions related how to perform a task in accordance with specifications would reveal more about what an individual can do.

Industry is partially at fault for some of this for requiring a CWI on many tasks as opposed to a company taking the responsibility to have requirements within their "Training and Certification" section of the QA Manual.

Hiring someone with CWI certification that has no verifiable work experience could sometimes lead to these problems. You speak of increased training however I had none but have easily passed the CWI exam on two prior occasions. My ability came from work experience in which I was a welder and inspector in an industry that did NOT place a great deal of value on being a CWI.

This is not directed at anyone but I have come across QA Managers with so little kowledge about what is required to be an inspector that they rely heavily on the "Certification" and I think many jobs are filled that way and many qualified people are overlooked.

One way to filter out the test passers from the inspectors would be to make up a few "Hiring Tests" with some real world questions that would give a better feel for what a person can do.

I recently took a 4 hour test for a maintenance position at a power plant along with a few hundred people. I did pretty well however in addition to the test scores and experience my educational background will be looked at during the "Selection" process. People with that "Classroom Experience" whether good or bad and the documentation to show it will have a higher probability of selection.

I can talk with another person for a few minutes and usually tell if they are knowledgable on that subject (or if I am). Yet we still place so much on certification. Does education only come from a school? or Class.

CWI's work in so many varied fields that even "Good Ones" may not give the correct impression if they are out of their environment and are rushed into a decision. But with knowledge comes the confidence to say you know or don't know. Know what you know, and know what you don't know! Learn to Learn not to earn!

Not hiring a CWI just because a person is a CWI is a little drastic. I actually got into QC years ago because the NDT inspectors that I worked around had little knowledge about what codes really said and often exceeded requirements just to "be safe".

I would like to see some some other "certification programs" developed solely for the purpose of establishing levels of useable knowledge and experience in certain fields. I believe the CWI program is fine for establishing some entry level requirements but it is the responsibility of owners and managers to verify the abilities of an individual.

One company I perform work for on a part time basis sends out written tests quarterly to all inspectors and then grades and returns the tests. I look forward to them to help keep me sharp. Some companies just want you to make sure your eye exam is up to date.

Anyway, you have some very good points and above is some of my related opinion.

Have a nice day

Gerald Austin

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-15-2004 11:58

Hi Jim,
I think to exclude all candidates for employment because they list in their credintials that they are CWI's, may lead to you overlooking some great inspectors. I do agree that CWI's need training as do welders or firemen or doctors or lawyers, etc... During your review process of prospective employees to fill a position as an inspector, you should ask those questions relevant to the types of inspection you will be requiring of your inspectors. At this time you should be able to figure out if someone is blowing smoke or if they know what they are doing. I don't except any welder certs, even though they come in the door with a handfull of them, for the same reason you aren't looking for CWI's to fill inspection positions. However, I do test all the prospective welders. In this process I've been amazed at the questions that are asked by some of these cert holding candidates for welding positions. Makes me wonder how they ever became certified at other companies. I recently had an inspector apply and was hired by another manager while I was away at a jobsite. They introduced me to this guy and told me how he was going to be such a great help with all the UT inspection I have and I could now focus on other things because this guy is qualified but he just doesn't have any papers. So, I give him the benefit of the doubt and was excited about putting him to work. He explained that he did all the UT inspection at another plant here in town and had tons of experience. I asked him what brand of UT machine he was used to using at the other plant he worked at and he explained that it was "you know a little black box with a screen on the front". I heard all I needed. Less than five minutes with this guy and I knew he was a phony. This is what I am driving at, give a guy five minutes during a review, even if he holds a CWI cert. Mr. Brieden asked to submit a resume', he may have aquired that CWI cert in Jan of 2001 for other reasons, like for the welding instructor position that he holds. I bet a five minute review will weed out the CWI's that aren't suited for your company.
Sorry for the rambling,
John Wright

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 06-15-2004 14:22

Thanks for your reply. I just asked the question, (why no training) I agree there might be CWI qualified, but it has been my exp. that a resume that says he is a CWI and a resume that shows no CWI cert, but has training and other certs, I have and will lean towards that person, only because I have been burned to many times by these CWI's that think they are inspectors. You get in the heat of the battle of a 7-12's turn-around and end up having to do a bunch of in-house training with these CWI'S.

By Bill A

Date 06-15-2004 17:41

In my opinion it takes the same amount of time to review a candidate's work experience, training, and familiarity with your particular application and work scope, whether or not the candidate has a CWI. I think it is wrong to consider all CWIs to be the same or to think that they are automatically qualified or able to do good inspections just because they have the CWI title, but I also think it is a mistake to consider a candidate to be unsuitable just because he has a CWI. I am a P.E. and CWI and I can tell you I have met both good and bad ones with each kind of title. When someone gets outside their particular area of expertise they can come across as being dumb as a rock even if they are God's gift to technology in another industry. The trick is to weed out the guys that are venturing outside their own area of training and experience. In my case for instance, I am comfortable dealing with pipe and vessels but would have to be really hungry to pretend I was a competent structural steel engineer or weld inspector.

By thcqci

Date 06-16-2004 13:07

I am one of those CWIs that has sometimes been put into positions over my head. I have extensive book training and am very book smart about NDE, QA/QC and CWI related matters, but have limited experience. I would consider myself a dirt dauber at best and would be considerably skinnier if I had to weld to put food on my table. But I can pass written CWI QA/QC and NDE related exams comparatively easily. I have my own library that covers all topics that I am involved in and regularly read and learn to improve myself. I have on several occasions had to turn to those around me that have the years of experience to help me make a decision. I would say I have come along way and now do have some experience to back up my extensive book knowledge. I have rarely stepped over the bounds of what I knew. But on the other hand, if one does not expands their bounds of knowledge, they won't progress either.

On the other hand, I have come across many individuals, that supposedly have many years of experience in this industry, that could not find their butts with both hands. They have no sound training to back up their experience. They do not know what code book says or what code quality work is. That is where the people like me become a strength. Book knowledge and code knowledge is just as important in many instances. Book smart people and field smart people should team up to cross train and make the whole team stronger. A good inspector (or any employee in the organization) would be well balanced with both. Some day I will be counted in that well balanced group. Until then, I will do the best with the situations I am put into and will observe and know my limits.

On the third hand, I have met a few people in this industry, that John may be referencing, that are not book smart and are not field smart. They should be trained (if trainable) or culled for someone better. They are usually relatively easy to spot.

By vonash

Date 06-17-2004 01:10

Dear Jim Hughes
I am glad I don't have to work with you.
I also was with FD, W, GE, etc. That is where I got trained. Is that where you got trained ( by a company with a training program)?
Vonash

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 06-17-2004 12:26

Jim;

I agree completely that there should be training involved for newby CWI's but also think it's important to remember that the CWI Program was set up to provide a "generic" proof of the person's understanding of welding in general.

The training you are questioning should (in my opinion) be company or industry specific. It wouldn't be possible or practical for AWS or any other organization for that matter to attempt establishing multi-industry training.

As for refusing to hire an inspector simply because they hold CWI credentials is, in my own opinion, just plain ignorant.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-17-2004 14:43

Just to add another thought... or two :)

It appears to me that this problem (as related to the original post) was never one of CWI's being incompetent as a group.

Finding people that can do the job (without investing in *any* training) can be tough, however it is possible if the employer does his homework and is prepared to pay, and that is exactly what is not happening in the case as described. If your company is unwilling to invest in that training program they darn well better be ready to invest in hiring personel that already have the training. Either way your going to pay.

Any competant interviewer can discover if an applicant is conversant in code interpretation and has the ability and desire to do necessary research or has the bredth of experience to handle complex duties.

So as I see it, Jim needs to get himself involved in the hiring process at his organization, he appears to know what is needed in these personel matters. Its the folks doing the hiring who dropped the ball here.

Not every welder certified to weld pipe can do complex layout and fitups and fabrication, and not every CWI can from the moment they pass the exam perform the most complecated duties. Thats just a common sense fact of life.

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 06-17-2004 16:01

[deleted]

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 06-17-2004 16:35

Jim.... your statement regarding training holds true but not ONLY for CWI's....... I have worked with many OSU graduates who were fantastic welding engineers (on paper) but if you asked them to build anything ~ forget it! I have also worked with many PhD metallurgists who were superb in a SINGLE application of metallurgy but......... well, you seem a smart enough guy to figure out the rest of this story....

By RonG

Date 06-17-2004 17:00

Mr. Hughes
Try drinking in a little reality. Who cares what you went through to get where you are?

There are people out there that want a job, alot of them have a family that depends on them to bring home a pay check to get a roof over there head, shoes on there feet and some food in there belly.

Most of them are going to do what ever it takes to provide for there family and if blowing smoke up your you know what they will. And you would and most likely have done the same (I doubt you would admit it though).

Maybe you need some training in how to conduct an interview, or maybe better yet you could do some OJT after you have hired some one 25 years old with 20 years expearance.

In case you havent noticed the world population is not shrinking and compitition for a decent paying job is a lot greater than it was 20 ~ 30 years ago.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 06-17-2004 17:34

I don't think the lack of training is as much a problem as is "Training to Pass the test".

I and I'm sure many others had no formal training but our experience and knowledge gained through self study and work allowed us to pass a test. If our level of knowledge had not been sufficient, we wouldn't have passed.

The same thing happens often with welder certifications. A 6g pipe/tube test is nothing compared the the things that one has to do in the field. Yet we are still certified to reach out an arms length away and make a weld looking in a mirror or letting someone else talk to you telling your hands what to do.

When those welds come up, the foreman doesn't just grab some guy thats certified (Usually). But gets a person that has moved beyond the elementary stage of passing a test. The test in both cases is an accomplishment but only establishes a VERY basic understanding of what is performed in the areas of quality control and welding inspection. The "good stuff" comes from a persons own interest and motivation. Or sometimes from being put in a situation that requires learning or failing.

I too do not place a great value on being a CWI as compared to experience. I have seen many engineers or people with 4 years of school greater than mine that were unimpressive in their ability to grasp the most basic concepts about welding. Then again I have seen others that I respected greatly. I have come across many with no "education" that I desired greatly to work with or for just to learn from them.

Thats the joy of being individuals. Each is unique.

The CWI application allows for either education or experience. The "Real Knowldege" gained by either could vary considerably however this is verified by testing. I think the key to hiring good people is a knowledgable person doing the hiring and monitoring a persons performance after hiring is essential.

Have a nice day

Gerald Austin

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 06-18-2004 00:03

[deleted]

By RonG

Date 06-18-2004 02:06

Okay! I will try to ask it differently. What is wrong with training someone to do things the way you expect them to be done?

I really don't think any one expects a person with a CWI to be an authority on anything. It is my understanding that CWI means you can read and interpret code as specified in a WQR, WPS or PQR. Beyond that there are Level II's and III's or Engineers that oversee their work.

When I took (and passed with a fairy high percentage) the test, I had been welding as well as machining for many years in everything from Copper mines to Super-critcal power plants - even assisted (looked over shoulders) in testing personal. I have certs in SMAW, GTAW, GMAW and SAW. But, I had never had to search through and interpret code. As I stated before I feel that CWI is just a launching point for someone to get started, and the test demonstrates ones ability & willingness to learn.

I know that for some folks it can turn into an ego trip, but a good supervisor should be able to control his people.

I just feel that CWI should be a door-opener for someone willing to learn and grow - not the finished product.

I am not as eloquent as Ghet or Gerald but I think they feel somewhat similar. Sorry if I am assuming too much (Chet/Gerald).

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 06-18-2004 02:16

Thats about the gist of it. A fair assumption.

:)

GA

By Michael Sherman (***)

Date 06-18-2004 10:55

Mr. Hughes, the reason there is no training other than to pass the test is that it is impossible to train for every contingancy or company. (I suspect you know this already). If a CWI is trained to work for me, it is unlikely that this training qualifies (or prepares) him to work for Bechtel. It is not possible for AWS or any organization to train someone to meet everyones needs. The cost would be exorbitant (my dues are too high as it is). Therefore, this training is left to industry. We must train our own people to meet our individual needs. Or as already mentioned, pay a lot more and hire someone who is already trained in your specific area. I hope I have answered your question. I own my own business and I am a CWI/CWE, I have taken the training course AWS offers (to pass the test, no doubt) and I have relatives who are welding engineers. So, based on this "experience" I believe practicality to be real reason training is relegated to our specific industries. You don't have to agree or even like the answer, but I do believe this is what everyone else has been trying to say also.

Mike Sherman
Shermans Welding

By vonash

Date 06-18-2004 22:12

Hi Jim,
You have a valid point. Now you have to work with your resources.
Do you have a written practice per SNT-TC-1A?

By jfwi

Date 07-09-2004 20:55

Mr. Hughes

I took the 5 day class before the exam and saw there people that had taken the exam as many as 7 times previous. AWS requires classroom (college) and/or field experience to become a CWI. So if I can prove that I worked for a welding contractor for 5 years then I have the experience I need. But did I sweep floors for burn rod?

I personally think that the 5 day course should be required, yea it makes the cost more than double, but ethics is often a part of the course and at least there would be some training. Though I have heard that some instructors are not as useful as others.

Just some thoughts.
Jerry

By HoutxInspect Date 08-01-2004 09:38

I'm a CWI with a code welding and fabrication background and have worked with people that came up from the fabrication side and others that came up from the ndt side. Both have inspection related experience and strengths and weaknesses related to the fields they came from though many I've know from both industries weren't mature enough to admit it.

One of the first things I did after I got my CWI was get as much training as I could afford while I continued to work as a welder. It helped but wasn't by any stretch of the imagination everything I wish I could have had before getting my first assignment as an inspector. But after doing this for the last 13 years I can say now that if I had waited to learn everything I needed to know to work in all the industries I've worked in I would still be welding and would probably be welding for the rest of my life.

Being a CWI is a practice. None of us will ever know everything we wish we had learned by the time a project is finished. Most figure that out at some stage of our careers and make it a point to improve our study habits so we can adopt to the sharp learning curves we know we'll have to face on most project we go onto.

I’ve also had to inspect equipment that I wasn't 100% familiar with. But I can read specifications in English, and measuring tools and gauges that will tell me what I need to know to know if something is acceptable or not and will always report it that way.

I haven't heard every excuse in the book but by now I think I'm fairly close to it, and it's a big book too.

Having worked on FD projects myself I appreciated the brief but by no means adequate little training I received prior to going on the assignment but at least it was an effort. Since most of the organizations that do that kind of thing rewrite most of the code requirements into their quality plans on their letter head it's usually less than what I have brought to the project but all that's required, but usually expected to be known by heart by the time you reach the field a couple of days later by your new supervisor. If you're lucky you won't end up with god's personal gift to the steel fabrication industries of America, like obviously Mr. Huges considers himself to be.

As far as training someone to test a welder is concerned that shouldn't take a lot of talk. But if anyone thinks that it can be done by and for an organization with a QA/QC Mgr that won't support the inspector assigned to do it, is just blowing smoke up their own . . .

Not being the genius that most CWI's are I failed my test the first time I took it. Sure I got a CAWI and immediately signed up to take the test again 3 months later.

While still working as a code pipe welder, I made a couple of tries to find an inspection job but was always told that the full CWI cert was required. It didn't bother me because as a code welder, knowing what was involved to become a CWI, I didn't feel that anyone that couldn't pass the test should be inspecting my work, and I don't care who they drink beer with after work.

But I also realize that they can take any pretty like 18 year old fire watch and make her an inspector, and that some do.

By the way, once I got my CWI, I went back to one of the companies that had required me to have a CWI to put me to work and guess what I found when I got out on the job? Out of the four inspectors they had on that project, I was only one with a full cert. Even though we all had the same general backgrounds in welding, and we all did basically the same thing, the cert didn't pay a penny more.

Would I rather hire someone with a CWI? If I have a choice, you better believe I would. But like some of the others have already said, if they don't know the work, it won't take much talk to find out.

Richard In Houston, Tx.

By jamesrodr (*)

Date 08-02-2004 08:14

Mr Hughes,

Just curiosity . For which method of NDT and at what level does ASNT specify 120 hours of classroom training ?