American Welding Society Forum
We are wanting to hire a UT inspection person. Can we get by with a level II working with an approved procedure written by a level III or do we have to have a level III. There will be only one person performing UT inspection.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Brian J. Maas
That is the way we do it here. And as long as you trust him to perform competently. Is there anyone there that knows a little bit about UT; enough to assure he is doing a good job? If you do not already know his competency, perhaps it would be good to retain the Level III or a Level II that you trust, for a short period of time to assure he is performing well.
At our shop, I wrote the qualification procedure and the UT procedure. I submited it to the Level III that was to certify me and he recommended changes. We took most of his recommendations, accepted the procedures and put them into practice. The Level III's signature is on the procedures. The General Manager is the ultimate responsible person to assure procedures are followed and his signature is also on the document. Then the Level III gave me the 3 required Level II exams as required in SNT-TC-1A. No one has questioned that so far. If we had a client that did question it, we could take that one step further by paying the Level III a retainer to physically oversee that particular project. The Level IIIs idea of overseeing the project is a combination of announced and unannounced visits to the shop whenever NDE is being performed and assuring the equipment certifications are being performed in accordance with code and/or written procedures. That would not be cheap so that is why we do not just regularly retain him.
FYI, http://www.sai4ndt.com, since you will wonder who our Level III is.
Hope that helps.
"Is there anyone there that knows a little bit about UT; enough to assure he is doing a good job?"
This is a mistake. How is someone who knows a "little" about UT able to basically audit a ticketed (with an ACCP or a CGSB) UT tech? This is not a wise move.
Anyone with an outside level 2 ticket will always win the argument with a person with an in house cert.
The problem with the ACCP cert is some people got it through a granfather clause without taking any type of test. If you hire one ask to see exam results. Some companies will not allow them to work on thier stuff if they grandfathered in. They want to see proof that they actually sat the exams.
Agreed. Just trying to make the point that if you know nothing about UT, then it is easy to be fooled. Let me make an anology. Lets say your car breaks and your wife takes the car to an auto mechanic. She may not know a thing and must completely trust the mechanic to tell her the truth. You may know more about it but not enough to actually make the repair. If you are an auto mechanic, but just want to pay another one to make the repair, then you are an even better judge of the competence of the mechanic. If you know a little bit about auto mechancs, you can make a better judgement whether the auto mechanic performing work on your car is doing a reasonable good job than if you know nothing. The more you know, the better your judgement will be. That is all I was trying to say.
"without taking any type of test" is not a true statement concerning the ACCP transition (grandfathered) that just completed last September. Transitioning candidates had to submit documentation of training and certifications for the NDT method and industry sector for which they were applying for and then go through scrutiny by ASNT. Some candidates submitted certification documentation that came from more than one company. Although not tested ACCP style yet, they had indeed been tested by a qualified procedrue and attested by a ASNT Level III or ACCP Level III.
People who grandfathered in never sat for an ASNT test and certain companies I work for will not accept the ACCP without test results. That is all I am trying to say.
All they had to do was submit some paperwork saying that they had in house certs and did training IAW ASNT rules to convert an inhouse to an ASNT cert. If you want to use this cert overseas be prepared to have test results.
I would recommend hiring a Level II with a great deal of experience. I would also recommend an ACCP Level II (ASNT Central Certification Program), this will help to ensure that the technician is proficient. I have seen too many certified Level II's (and Level III's for that matter) that have had very limited knowledge to even perform a basic UT examination.
"...a great deal of experience" from an unknown person is still very subjective. As has been debated in other threads recently, experience presented without knowledge of the source can be problematic. I am aquainted with a gentleman that can show you a resume with all kinds of experience and a ?Level III? (wink, wink) from a suspect source (not ASNT). I have witnessed him having trouble setting up to scan for laminations in plate, let alone conduct a competent UT weld inspection. Trouble is UT is one of those practices that unless you know what you are looking at, you can be fooled into thinking that the person is doing a fine job. Early in my career, my employer sent me to Krautkramer I and II school. He could have taught me himself, but he told me he was sending me for several reasons. One of the main reasons was he wanted me to have a very sound (no pun intended) base of knowledge because he did not expect me to be performing UT for the rest of my career. He expected me to be supervising someone else performing the inspection and to know whether they were doing a good job. I never forgot that and I have not wasted his money.
I think having someone you trust to supervise the person for a period of time would be valuable. It could be a Level III or it could be an aquaintance in the NDE field you trust and who you can compensate for his services. I had a layoff of almost a decade between assignments as a UT Level II. When my current employer wanted me to put my UT hat back on, I took several months to research current technology and equipment. Once I got my equipment and got pretty proficient setting it up and using it, I spent several sessions going to another local company where a friend that I trusted "looked over my shoulder" to see if I was doing a good job. He presented me some welds that he had already scanned in his shop and let me look for discontinuities. I told him to be blatently honest if I was not doing a good job, which he certainly was. Another inspector friend, who I greatly respect, has been into our shop to perform 3rd party verification inspections after me also. I have called him for advise several times over the years. So far he has only "busted" me one time and it was a marginal but valid call. Found my friends oversite was most valuable. Translate that to doing the same for an unknown candidate and that should become invaluable peace knowing your UT II is doing a competent job. I sure don't want any weld I accept to be found unacceptable once I put my name on it. The cost of rejections and repairs in the field, or worse, a failure of a weld in the field is too great to take a chance on.
I agree that an ACCP certified personnel should be a better risk when considering a candidate.
Well said and I agree totally!
It depends on what your contract, Quality Assurance Program and your client specifies. Do you want to just get by, or do you want to do it right? If you are going to hire an outside or even an inside NDT Technician, whether it be a Level II or III, who will certify this individual? Which procedures will he use?
A good idea is to use an ACCP Level II or a Level III that has a practical examination on his certs from ACCP or an agency recognized by ASNT/ACCP.
Who will oversee this person to ensure he/she is working in accordance with approved written procedures? Do you already have UT procedures for the job? Who reviewed and approved them? What does your client say about all of this?
I don't believe it is a good idea, contractually and liability wise to just hire someone who has a lot of experience. The paperwork is as important as the work itself.
You may even want to consider subcontracting the work.
What I am trying to say here is that you can have the best technician in the country. However , if it is not documented properly, it can bite you!
Your company probably has a good start on a SNT-TC-1A program. Just get that document and read the requirements.
Basically, it's up to the company to certify their people. You need an NDT level III to implement the program. Your boss can designate you.
Then just hire someone who you like, and make them take a compentency examination at time of hire.
Where previous SNT-TC-1A documents allowed the employer to waive Level III examination, 1992, 1996 & 2000 SNT-TC-1A requires Level III's to be qualified by examination. This can, of course, be an in house examination.
ASME allowed certifications of appointed Level III's to be valid until the next recertification dates. Many were reappointed before the cutoff dates (1995 for Sect. I, and 1997 for Sect. VIII) and were able to have additional time for the written examinations.
Yeah I did not mean to imply that you could bless someone to be an NDT level II or III. SNT-TC-1A provides for in-house exams etc., if you are knowledgeable enough to put together a program.
Again, I say, it depends on your contract. Yes you should have a certification program in place or at least a quality program that addresses it. Again, it all depends on what your client requires. If your client doesn't require any certifications, then fine, but I seriously doubt that.
There are many ways to do it, but initially certifying a person by an outside agency is the cleanest way to do it. Then he/she can certify individuals in house.
Level III isn't really "Level II plus more". People who do actual inspection are Level II; Level III is who certifies the Level II, evaluates, administers. Many Level IIIs don't spend enough time in the shop to be good inspectors and their use as inspectors is discouraged (unless they can meet the Level II criteria, including hours spent testing annually and visual acuity).
If you're going to hire someone, take a Level II. You need to have access to a Level III to approve the Level II, but that's about it. Many companies don't have their own Level III; they go to a 3rd-party contractor when they need the services of one.
Hg has pretty well hit the nail on the head. As an ASNT Level III, I will add a few comments though.
In an ideal world a Level III would be someone who used to be a Level II in the technique in question and has gained ample experience in that techique to achieve Level III. Many aerospace Level IIIs have no idea how to inspect a weld and likewise, many who can inspect welds have no idea how to use UT on aircraft. But as the program now stands a UT Level III is a UT Level III. So, if you want to be sure your Level III knows your requirements and techniques, question him/her about their experience and ask for some documentation showing that they know your requirements.
As Hg stated, in your situation, you need only a Level II. There are a number of places you can advertise for one including www.asnt.org, www.ndt.net, www.ndt.org, and a number of recruiters who can help you find one, www.smrcs.com, www.nerinc.com and www.pqndt.com.
NDT Level III, 1225
I agree with Bill, however, you still need a program to back up your NDT.
A level II cannot work without an approved procedure or being certified. This is a requirement of any spec. Certification is written testimony of qualificatons.
No one can guarantee or insure any component without this.
It's all about liability.
My posts stand!
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