Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Etching
- - By thirdeye (***) Date 10-14-2004 18:05
Does anybody have a suggestion for a non-toxic etching solution? My customers safety department is requesting a substitution for a nitric acid solution. I am only etching to locate the toes on butt welds and crack repair areas that have been flush ground and polished, for the purpose of laying out the HAZ for a UT scan (not looking for cross section weld structure) The material is all carbon or low allow steel. Would something like citric acid (lemon juice or concentrate) work?
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 10-15-2004 13:51
The etching operation is by nature based on corrosion. You corrode slightly the metal surface to be able to determine its structure on the microscope.
Therefore, to etch the metal surface you need a corrosive agent. If it's corrosive it's also toxic, i.e., you can't swallow it.
For steel and ferrous alloys the most common etching agent is Nital, a solution of nitric acid whose corrosive properties have been "softened" by the addition of aluminum powder. Citric acid is too weak to act as an etching agent.
For copper and copper alloys the most common etching agent is Ferric Chloride, which is an acidic salt, i.e., when dissolved in water the resulting pH is less than 7.
Those agents are toxic but not dangerous if properly handled. Use rubber gloves and, if you really want to exagerate, use also safety glasses. But even if by an accident your hands get wet with them, don't run into panic. Walk (don't need to run) to the nearest water tap and wash your hands.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - By Kulkarni (*) Date 10-16-2004 05:01
Nital is Nitric acid in Alcohol which can be either Methyl alcohol or Ethyl alcohol.

dileep kulkarni
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-18-2004 19:51
Sorry, I'm kind of laughing to myself reading this posting. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be. I have no experience with etching outside of the "normal" nitric acids, etc., but I'm wondering if vinegar might be strong enough if heated? Just a shot in the dark!
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 10-19-2004 01:44
It all started after we submitted the standard notebook containing a MSDS on all materials used on the jobsite. No one has ever balked at the use of nitric etching solutions until now. All of the other ASME suggested reagents are equally dangerous in the eyes of others. I'm willing to try anything from toilet bowl cleaner to crunchy peanut butter if it will satisfy these guys.
Parent - By - Date 10-19-2004 04:20
Sounds like you've run up against one of them edjimicated enginyeers who has a job in safety he has extrapolated into progress minimization.
Peanut butter ain't gonna do much, but it might be a nice snack while you sit staring at the job.
Toilet bowl cleaner- well, some formulas are Phosphoric acid based, and might work, and if Mr Safety crys, you can show him the ingredient label on a can of CocaCola.
Vinegar might work too, with a little heat to help it along, as long as you don't have to smell it.
Cow molasses will remove rust over time, and if this is a T&M job, might be worth looking into.
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 10-19-2004 06:31
An electric current in the deplating direction might help these weaker reagents work. You would have to experiment. Still the used electrolyte will contain the removed metal which might mean you still have disposal problems.
Bill
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 10-19-2004 18:08
Table vinegar contains 4-5 % of acetic acid and isn't strong enough to act as an etching agent. Acetic acid is an organic, weak one.
Phosphoric acid is as toxic as nitric. It's true that Coca Cola contains free phosphoric acid, but the percentage is very small. You wouldn't use Coca Cola to etch your metallic samples, would you?
Other toilet bowl cleaners contain caustic soda, which is worse than nitric acid.
Electric current in the deplating direction will work, but not if the metallic sample is submerged in pure water. It must be submerged in the proper chemical reagents (iron salts in an acidic solution ), which again, are toxic.
Sorry, Thirdeye, but you won't be able to get rid of toxic materials. Attention though! Toxic isn't the same as poisonous. Poisonous substances cause death when swallowed in very small quantities. Example: potassium cyanide, stricnine. Toxic materials will cause a serious shock in the organism, but not death if swallowed only one time.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 10-19-2004 19:56
Thanks for the clarification on the difference between toxic and poisonous, Giovanni. But I think I will abstain from swallowing anything with either word on the label!

Chet Guilford
Parent - By Sean (**) Date 10-19-2004 20:56
Just my two cents...

Here in Canada, I have been told that the welding bureau also stopped carrying Nital (due to transportation of dangerous goods or something) to etch there macros and some of the reps now use oven cleaner... maybe it will work for your application. I've tried a drano (liquid plumber) on aluminum macros and it works quite well. Give it a try and let us know what you come up with...

-Sean

Parent - - By Mikeomni1 (*) Date 10-21-2004 20:14
Ammonium Persulfate desolved in water is about the safest etchant I know of for carbon and low alloy steel. Here is a link to the MSDS for Ammonium Persulfate.

http://www.mgchemicals.com/msds/english/solids/410.pdf
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 10-21-2004 21:09
Do you recommend the ASME recipe of 9 parts water to 1 part Ammonium Persulfate?
Parent - By Mikeomni1 (*) Date 10-22-2004 15:56
I seldom measure when mixing up A-P solution. I approximate a tablespoon of A-P to a cup of water. But, 9 to 1 sounds like a proper mixture.

Regards,
Mike
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 11-15-2004 22:29
What's the difference between using ammonium persulfate and Nital? Is there a noticeably different effect (on the etch, not the etcher)?

Hg
Parent - By Mikeomni1 (*) Date 11-16-2004 16:51
I find very little difference in appearance between the two using naked eye or low mag observation. The A/P may not be quite as sharp in contrast.

Regards,
Mike
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 10-22-2004 00:19
For etching of stainless steel, the Behara solution is used. This solution is prepared mixing 20 milliliters of hydrochloric acid, 80 milliliters of distilled water, one gram of potassium metabisulphite and 2 grams of ammonium bifluoride.
Again, a corrosive and toxic agent.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By LarryL (**) Date 11-17-2004 02:25
I worked 8 years as a plant engineer at an Allied Chemical facility where we manufactured sulfuric and hydrofluoric acids from raw materials and refined nitric, hydrochloric and acetic acids into reagent grade acids. As you might imagine every production plant in that facility had to deal with leaks in their pipelines, pumps, digesters, distillation towers, storage tanks and other equipment. In the sulfuric, hydrochloric, nitric and acetic acid plants none of our workers had any significant injuries during my years there. After exposure to these acids, workers could quickly wash themselves off in the safety showers and eye wash fountains that were nearby - although nitric acid has a tendency to turn exposed skin yellow very quickly.

It was a different matter in our hydrofluoric acid (HF acid) plant, where everyone was afraid of exposure to the acid from leaks. That's because of HF acid's extreme corrosivity to human flesh. Whenever I, for example, had to go over to our HF acid plant to get information or take measurements for some design work, I'd stop a few feet from the plant and look for signs of any leaks in the overhead pipelines, pumps and digesters before walking into the plant. I saw or heard of many significant HF acid burns while working there. Unlike all other acids HF acid cannot merely be washed off and neutralized with sodium carbonate or another alkaline solution. The acid has such an affinity for human flesh that it will continue to eat its way deeply into ones tissues. To stop its corrosive action, calcium gluconate must be injected into the tissues at the site of acid exposure. One of our mechanics required several plastic surgical repairs to his face after getting sprayed with HF acid. In an offsite accident the son of our draftsman got very dilute HF acid on one hand while picking up several flasks that another Univ. of Calif. lab worker had rinsed off with HF acid (in some laboratories it's used as a glass cleaner). When he realized what had happened, he washed his hands off with copious amounts of water and soaked them in sodium carbonate solution. That night as his hands continued to burn, he hesitated to inform his father about his exposure. When he did tell his father the next morning, his father rushed him to the office of our facility's doctor. The doc injected the son's hand with a lot of calcium gluconate. The damage had been done though by that time. I saw a photo later of this kid's hand. All the finger tips of his hand were eaten away and boney stubs protruded.

HF acid, fortunately, is only slight corrosive to steel and therefore would not be an appropriate weld etching chemical. With any etching mixture containing fluorides and bifluorides, however, there is a likelihood of some HF acid forming in the mixture. One should utilize rubber gloves, face shield and even rubber rain wear as protection during etching to keep from getting any HF acid, no matter how dilute, on ones skin.
LarryL
Parent - By Neal Chapman (**) Date 11-21-2004 02:04
LarryL,

Thank you for your most informative post regarding the real effects of hydroflouric burns.

Neal
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Etching

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill