would like to get certifed

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 10-29-2004 17:27

You can check out the AWS Certified Welder Program at http://aws.org/certification/CW/ . In my experience each employer was responsible for certification of welders and very seldom did they accept certification from other employers.

If you can weld, most any non-union company will test you prior to hiring. This may or may not be a "certification" depending upon what type of work they do.

The normal practice I have seen for non-union boiler and pipe work is to certify on each project. Though not required by the codes many owners(Plants) require this. Also since welding records do not go between non-union companies to maintain a welders continuity a person is often required to retest since there is no record of their continued welding when they work for another company.

I have been welding for over 20 years and have yet to become a "master" . Let me know when you find out who does this. Some states may issue licenses.

As a graduate of a "Welding School" you should be able to test on a job and be certified for that company. If you are thinking about doing your own welding and certfying then you could go to a testing lab after welding a test in accordance with a specific code, get the required destructiveornon-destructive testing done and if acceptable you could then prepare the required documentation and "P O O F" you are then certified.

Certain states and codes may have more stringent requirements. It all depends what you want to do.

Including the base wage, retirement, annuity etc. my pay is nearly double what I made as a non-union boilermaker. I make more as a union boilermaker than I do working as an employee as a welding inspector. Of course there are some downsides and I only have 2 years in the union so I can't say its for everyone. You seem to have made your decision so I'd go with it.

Hope this helps and I'm sure others will follow. Good Luck

Gerald Austin
http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com

By nspc6f

Date 10-29-2004 23:17

Mr. Austin.
thank you for the advise. I will look in to it. As for the union thing I may have to suck it up, just because they pay so well and they have more of the jobs. The union is like group of old women with lose bouls. I have never been with a company that take so long to get a simple job done. There have been several "master welders" I have meet. All I can say about them is that there is a lot of space between the ears.
I am also intersted in starting a non-union construction company (after school and more experience). Would it be worth looking in to it? Do you think that jobs are leaning towards becomeing union or not?

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 10-29-2004 23:41

I think there are some advantages to union labor in many cases however I have heard valid arguments both for and against. I have only been in the union 2 years. The work has been good. As with all jobs you have some people that slow it down or may be considered dead weight.

I think there are many people in labor that should closely examine their work ethic. One of the phrases I often hear is "Working Yourself Out of a Job". There are two ways to do that

1) Get the job done safely, with high quality, in the minimum amount of time and move on to the next one.

2) Drag the job out doing anything you can to slow it down thinking you deserve to "take your time". And then next thing you know that organization is also "..out of a job"

When you leave in the morning and tell your kids you are "going to work", work is a VERB.

I think organized labor is a better way for the companies and the people doing the work however understand that I am speaking from the labor side of it. If there are any managers on the forum that have some opinion on union vs non-union I as a person in organized labor would like to know how you feel.

I would like to do my part to make union labor desirable both for companies and other people in the skilled trades.

Have a good day

Gerald Austin

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-31-2004 09:15

Excellent Advice G!!!

Welcome nspc6f to the forum!

Like Gerald, I've worked on both sides of the "fence" so to speak and. I have to agree with his opinion wholeheartedly!!!

There are always some "bad apples" in both union and non-union trades.
The ones that stay on the jobs longest always get the bad rep because, of the few that are eventually no longer on the job...
Sure, it may take a little longer to get rid of "dead weight" if they have some seniority (in the union) but, they either shape up or ship out!
The ones that are constantly busy are usually among the best and most reliable and, that's why there always in demand, get assigned to the next job first...

Different jobs require different amounts of manpower so eventually, a local will run out of enough "A" list and "B' list members... This requires them to request help in the case of the Boilermakers, from the NTL (National Transient Local) which was designed to help fill manpower requirements for the different locals located across the country and sometimes in Canada or visa versa... What I'm getting at is this; sometimes contractors will get manpower from different regions that may not be used to the work ethic that may or may not be present in a certain region or local and, this may or may not result in management developing unfavorable opinions concerning some of these individuals and visa versa but, it's not always the case because, I know quite a few excellent NTL journeymen that eventually find a local that they develop a mutual respect for each other and, that person ends up on there "A" list or at least their "B" list... Heck, I was on both lists at quite a few locals in my career as a Boilermaker and, had both pleasant & difficult experiences when I was with the NTL...

BTW, which location were you at when you were at Tulsa Welding School? Good school but, not the end of your training -only the beginning!!!

Gerald, I dobt it very much that all of these so called "Master Welder" types could perform some of the welding we had to do when we worked on our favorite "pressure vessels" if you get my meaning!!! At least I have'nt ran into one that would accept some of the more challenging jobs we were qualified to perform - "mirror, mirror on the wall or should I say walls" because I know that I sometimes had to use more than one and,I know you did too pal!!! nspc6f, you may want to ask these master welders that you know if they've done any mirror welding before and, I do'nt just mean with SMAW!!! Alot of GTAW pipe welding that me and Gerald did, required some of the joints to be either partially or fully mirror welded and it was a rarity when we encountered a fully accessable pipe joint that did'nt require the use of a mirror or two or even three in some locations where in some instances, pipe hangers or other weldments that because of poor planning, conflicting schedules, the lack of modular construction or shoddy workmanship required repairs after everything else including the "kitchen sink" was installed - making it unjustifiable to rip out whatever was obstructing our veiw in order to repair or add on a run or another hanger, structural component, machined surface from a revision in the design for whatever reason or because a component was completely overlooked if you catch my drift... Even arc strikes had to be repaired and they were usually noticed after everything else was installed so, if you want to know who were or are in my opinion Master welders? The men and women that did and still can perform this type of work including the ones that do this type of work today because, not only can they perform the work to a consistent level of quality that would be the envy of many experienced welders without this exposure... They also can without hesitation, explain all of the technical aspects occurring before, during and after the welding is performed and justify why this type of welding is necessary or not.

The AWS has entry, advanced and master or is it expert level welder designations at least from what I can recall (please correct me if I'm incorrect) and I'm not knocking their requirements but, I'd like to see if the master level designations could handle some of the work that I know Gerald and a few other gentlemen including myself (well I'm not always a gentle person but that's another story) have experience with, in a "baptism by fire" situation where they were only shown and allowed to practice with a mirror or two or three (if they could handle that many) for a week, then find out if there level of quality passes muster, meaning MT, PT, RT & UT on a mock up!!!
Throw them inside a United States Navy Warship - preferrably a nuclear powered submarine that's already packed to the "gills" and perform this type of work and, achieve the same consistent level of quality workmanship that is required in order to be qualified to perform this to say the least, type of welding in such challenging working environment...
Now do'nt get me wrong, there are some gentlemen that can perform this level of expertise without ever having Gerald's or my experience but, not many of them exist... I do recall a recent article in the welding journal showcasing repair welding of certain components that are found in our nation's NASA Space Shuttle fleet and I must say that I was impressed with the challenges that were overcome in order to successfully complete the work and. the conditions in order to do so...
Nonetheless, some of the conditions we encountered rose to that same level!

Anywho, If I were in your shoes, I'd take full advantage of the Pipefitters or Ironworkers union offers because, they offer training that will definitely help in your career advancement and, they'll even help you out in paying for your welding engineering degree if you can handle everything else, especially the mathematical proficiency, physics, metallurgy, proficiency in inspection methodologies, best practices, etc., that is required of you just to continue towards your goal of becoming a decent one. All of the welding experience that you'll gain in a variety of processes and conditions will also give you a unique perspective that other students in your class might not have...
Therefore, giving you an advantage that others may not be able to handle. In other words, you will be able to graduate and hit the ground running as opposed to learning how to walk first!
All of your goals can be achieved and on top of that, while you're reaching for your goals, your getting paid a decent wage and you do'nt have to pay for any of the training!!! Who could ask for anything better than that??? Unless you do'nt mind spending alot of money on your own!
My advice to you, from somone that was offered a teaching position at Tulsa Welding School when they opened their facility in Jacksonville, Florida, which I turned down because, I recieved a more convenient offer locally in Pittsburgh, PA, is to reconsider the Pipefitter's local offer because, the local Steamfitters as they're called here in Pittsburgh, have training facilities in all regions of the US that meet and surpass any of the schools that you have to pay for period!!!
Now do'nt expect Journeymans status immediately unless you have enough documented experience in man hours in order for them to justify granting you that status. Besides, like anything else, they'll find something that is a requirement to achieve (yes, you have to work for it) Journeymans status that you may need training in to meet their standards...

If I were you I'd take another look! Buono Fortuno!

Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By nspc6f

Date 10-31-2004 17:44

to all-thank you very much for all the advise.
May be I have bad luck and always run in to the bad apples. I have made several friends in the union. I gave the Ironworkers a try but there was just not enough welding for my taste. My main interste is pipe and anything which require hard, high quality welds. I am also looking into doing underwater welding. How do I choose between Pipefitter unions, Boilermakers, steamfitters... what other types of welding type of unions are there. Are all of them similar in the way of welding (want to learn as much as possibal). Where would be the best places to look for a union (states). What qualification would make me disiribal for a union (both parents work at the university)? I want to learn everything possibal about welding (from the entry level to the most advanced). I was in Tulsa,OK for welding school and I graduated to learn in 02. What are some good books (technical) about welding and metals? You guys have the autmost respect from me. sorry about all the questions.

Never too old to learn,
Nathan

By RonG

Date 10-31-2004 20:50

Nathan, I was just wandering, Do you think the unions exist just for you?

Do you think that welding was developed just for you and every one using the process is just waiting with baited breath for you?

How do you assume to know so much about something you are not even part of?

You need to go to work where ever you can and prove you can walk the walk befor you start hammering on other peoples organisations.

Stop and think about some of your comments aand what purpose do they serve?

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-09-2004 02:22

Hi Nathan!

You say you're in Columbia, Missouri? The Boilermakers National Training facilities are in Kansas City... Look them up and, ask them all of the questions you posted on this thread. Illinois being closest to you, pays the most in Chicago... Then you have others in New York City, New Jersey, Philadelphia, etc. but, I'm guessing that you'd rather be closer to home so, be persistent. Also, check out the boilermakers and pipefitters respective websites. Plenty of info there...

ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) Section IX, B31.1, B31.3, 6G or 6GR, 2" dia. heavy wall on CS, SS, Inconel would be very desireable... However, most companies that work with the boilermakers prefer what they call "Common Arc" qualified welders because, they participate in the program which in the long run saves the companies alot of time, and retesting welders by using the program's standard (testing) qualification procedures, and are entered into a database which is used to pick the qualified welders for a given job without requiring retesting, provided the welder meets the criteria set forth in the program...
Then there are some companies that will insist that you qualify to their own criteria in order to work on their site even if you're in the Common Arc program's database and listed as current and qualified to a given set of procedure specifications, processes, and alloy groups.

The Pipefitters/Steamfitters have their own system but, generally work off the ASME section IX code... Of course they sometimes require their welders to be certified to API (American Petroleum Institute) 1104 code.
Sometimes they require their welders to be certified to AWS codes especially when it comes to sanitary, Biopharmecutical, Dairy and semiconductor type of work (high & Ultra-high purity piping and tubing systems)... You can find this info in the AWS website.

It all depends what code the contractor is working from for a given job so, do'nt expect to be qualified in all of the codes once and for all because, there are restrictions regarding time lapsed between the last time you welded according to a given WPS (Welding Procedure Specification). I can't speak for others on this (internet)forum but, I've never ran across someone that had every qualification for every code - currently active...

As far as finding some good technical books go, the university's library where both your parents work could be a good place to start. Do a google or Yahoo search on "welding books", "metallurgy books", and look up some of the welding engineering programs available like Ohio State, Lehigh university, Le Torneau university, Colorado School of mines, etc. to find out what books they use in their curriculum. Research their curriculum to find out what subjects are being taught, and what is required of you to complete in order to earn a Welding engineering degree. You might find Quality Assurance interesting. Find out if you could get a hold of some welding code books at your parents university...
The bottom line is this: Keep asking questions, and be persistent because, eventually it's up to you to decide which direction you want to take.

Anywho, I guess I've "blown my own horn" enough to aggrevate some in this forum so, I'll humbly stop here - yeah right!!! TooT - TooT!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By JTMcC

Date 11-05-2004 23:39

SSB Whatever:

Good Grief Man!

You need a (different) forum in which to blow thine own horn, you welder of all (internet) welders!

JTMcC.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-09-2004 00:55

Hi JTM whatever!
Could you find me one?

SSB whatever!!! That's SSBN727...

By tab_1999 (**)

Date 11-01-2004 21:25

Gnat,
It appears that the forum got sidetracked from your original request. "Sometimes opinions are better left unsaid"
You are apparently working for your self which makes it difficult to work for much larger companies due to Certifications. AWS sells prequalified procedures to individuals or companies which make it a much simpler process, especially, if you have a company. You can test yourself pretty much and have a local lab RT or bend your test coupons to satisfy the Certification requirements. The lab records the results on the proper paperwork. It may be a requirement to have either a partner or independent testing facility to witness or conduct the tests.
Bottom Line is its the Companies responsibility to Qualify its welders.
p.s. there are a lot of Master Welders and most are Masters in some portion of welding specifically. There are numerous processes and not likely many have mastered them all.
Be a Master in all you do and with whats familiar to keeping you employed in the welding field that you enjoy. "If possible"
Good Luck!

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 11-03-2004 00:18

Most Codes do NOT require any 3rd party involvement though it is often suggested by consultants and the like. Of course it may be cheaper to have the coupons sent out for the bends but you may get a discount if you prep the straps yourself, have the lab do the bending.

Have a good one

Gerald Austin

By jfolk

Date 11-09-2004 18:11

Nathan,

All good advice from forum participants. If you are working for yourself as I do, for now, I qualified myself and maintain my qualifications as follows:
AWS D1.1 or ASME IX offer pre-qualified (AWS D1.1) or ASME IX (SWPS) procedures. Obtain a copy of either code and follow the essential variables listed and required by each process. Qualification can be obtained by either RT or by bend testing. Once qualified, you will be required to verify welding in the process in a six month time frame-this is a continuity log. RT costs $75.00 per shot and two side bends cost $25.00 each in my region.To obtain certification is really very inexpensive based on the initial testing. Just maintain your continuity and WELD WITHIN THE ESSENTIAL VARIABLES and you are per the codes. I will be happy to assist you in your qualification. You may contact me anytime.

John Folk

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 11-09-2004 19:54

To follow up what John has said, be clear with the testing lab that all you need is testing done. They do not certify you. I have seen labs /INdividual CWI's charge in excess of $200.00 for welder certification when all they needed to supply was a test report indicating bends or rt film met the requirements of the applicable code.

As with John, I will be glad to offer any free assistance.

Have a good day

Gerald Austin

By josephd (*)

Date 11-09-2004 20:11

I am not going to give you opinion. Just Facts. Do like TAB-1999 OR JFOLK recommends. You have heard this LINE before when applying for a job, "please come back when you have more experience" Ten years later the poor soul is still getting 10 bucks an hr. The only twist I would add is get a CWI or a representaive from a privite test lab to witness you weld up a sample. I would do 6GR pipe weld. Then have them ID STAMP the coupons, save the non tested protion of the test coupon, have them tested IAW code, then have them prepair a test report with certification data, and have them sign it with CWI # and have the test lab technician sign off on report. remember also save the tested coupons.

I recieved my CWI 1st year test was given CWI#80113811 and I helped several guys get certified that helped them not only get a 1st job but some recieved more pay. The cheap way is go to the union we can always learn.

DJ Tanks R Us,