Does anyone have any experience with Bonal Technologies vibrational stress relief equipment, or any vibrational equipment? Bonal (or Meta-Lax) claims 80%-90% reduction in distortion and cracking if the equipment is used during welding operations. I have a couple applications and one new one coming up where I need to control distortion, hopefully by other means than TSR.
One of my clients uses a Meta-Lax machine. He does not have the chart recorder, but I'm told it works well. Most notable: "...it works well when parts subject to severe internal stresses such as complex joints or heavy parts are welded."
This technique and equipment can be used during or after welding operations. It sure is noisy while it's shaking away...
We had some discussion on this issue a few months back. I don't want to beat a dead horse but you may just want to double check the Codes you are working with to see if this type of stress relieve is an essential variable... if it's simply a matter of wanting to control distortion and not a Code requirement you'll probably be fine, just advising a heads up if using ASME IX.... (or other ASME Codes) because I don't think vibratory stress relief is addressed by them...
At this point I am just looking for distortion control or reduction in distortion without using TSR. I saw the earlier discussion and was hoping someone might have experience with the Meta-Lax equipment, or any other vibratory system as far as that goes, or know someone who does. Just trying to find out if it really works like the manufacturer says it does.
Dear BF,
We'd be happy to take the time to address your stress relief concerns. Feel free to contact me anytime at formula62@aol.com
Chris Fischer
It's interesting that you are looking for vibratory stress relief info. I just signed on with the intent of asking the nearly same question you asked here. I would appreciate it if you could share anything that you learn. I will try to do the same.
Chet Guilford
Most of the information I have is from a company called Bonal Technologies. They make the Meta-Lax and PPAW equipment for stress relief and distortion control of welded parts. They have some really good claims and I am trying to find out just how accurate they are or if anyone has any experience with similar equipment. You can find out more about them at www.bonal.com. My project involves warping of pipe and solid round when welding attachments on one side. I am trying to control the distortion/warping without inducing heat on the other side. It would take a lot of effort and materials to determine just how much heat to use and where. The vibratory stress/distortion control sounds easier to control with good results. But before I spend the dollars I would like to make sure it's not just hype I'm getting. I would also appreciate any info you come accross.
Thanks,
Bill
My situation is the same as yours only I'm dealing with hydro gates instead of round counstruction. I'll let you know what I find out
Chet Guilford
Chet & BF, For what its worth we completed a complex large Turbine (steam)exhaust hood a couple months ago.
We were forced rely on vibration SR.
After fabrication we had to do some presicion machining to mate to existing sections and it held up very well. No distortion was noted.
What brand of equipment did you use? Did you use the equipment during or after welding? If you used it during the welding process, how did it effect the welding and the settings, did you have to play with it much before starting?
Thanks for your input,
Bill
The equipment was an older model of the "Metal-Lax", there was no chart. The newer ones can produce a chart of sorts.
We did not do the work in our shop. The contractor did the VSF while welding. It was pretty simple set up and did not seem bother the welders or the welding.
No adjustments to my knowledge, the device was attached in a few different places at different times.
If you would like I can e-mail you a 3-D view of the fabrication so you can get a better grasp of what was involved.
Ron & jfolk,
If the vibratory stress relieving you mentioned was in effect during the welding, did you have to run a PQR with the VSR? What differences were noticed compared to welding without VSR?
Our client believes running the VSR machine during welding would be an essential variable (D1.1) requiring qualification but I can't find info to that effect. They are also concerned that VSR might induce fatigue strain into the weldment. The client has a history with TSR on their projects and are sticking to their tried and proven methods, but will listen to alternatives. I was hoping to find some convincing documentation but if not, our costs for TSR are covered.
Thanks,
Chet
I'm with Chet, I don't see how VSR has anything to do with the essential variables. Did you do any testing first with your WPS to see if anything changed when adding the VSR to the process?
Bill
Chet, We did not do a PQR because the entire fabrication was A36 and we were not concerned with mechanical properties just machining stability.
We had planned to use TSR but the contractor got so far behind we were forced to look in to VSR. The contractor had used it for many occasions just like ours.
Chet,
A PQR was created and a subsequent WPS for each welding process used and for each material combination. All welding was performed to ASME IX, however, I do not remmeber if IX addressed vsr at the time. I don't remember particular dimensional tolerances maintained. All fabrications were either MT (ferrous) or PT (non-ferrous) inspected before during and after vsr and weld conditioning.
To: Chet Guilford
I have a lot of experience with dam gate projects dating back to the early 80's. If you are dealing with leaf sections and gate bodies I can help. Let me know.
Chet,
For your information, the US Dept. of the Interior specifies "Formula 62" stress relief equipment made by Stress Relief Engineering for stress relieving dam gates.
Bill,
If you need accurate information on vibratory stress relief and not just sales hype, give me a call at Stress Relief Engineering Co. at 949-642-7820. Visit our website if you like at www.stressreliefengr.com . We can give you some honest answers on what is or is not possible.
I had good results using the Metal-Lax system back in the mid 90's. The materials which were weld conditioned and vibratory stress relieved were carbon steel, stainless steel, aluminum and 4130. Machine stability for dimensional accuracy was the issue.
John Folk
Pictures would be great! I appreciate all the response. I am probably going to use what ever process I decide on for aluminum as well as carbon steel.
Bill
BF:
I watched the VSR machine at work again today on aluminum weldments. I did notice the [force] inducer had to be oriented perpendicular to the long axis of the part and the transducer has to be at a point where the vibration and any other shock was to a minimum.
The samples that were completed did have a noticable increase in the stability of the dimesional properties of the parts. the VSR was performed after the welds were completed, not during welding. So, depending on the application, this process does not have to be performed during welding.
There are several adjustments, primarily the frequency tuner, timer and harmonic peak sesitivity and a meter to monitor progress.
For CHG, I think if the EOR has determined using the VSR is an essential variable, I would request such an instruction in writing. Afterall, the Engineer does have the authority to modify the code requirements, as long as he/she had this information inclusive in the contract documents.
Yes I have 33 years experience in the vibratory stress relief field and could tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the Meta-Lax equipment line. My e-mail is open to everyone at Formula62@aol.com. If you have questions and want a truly informed answer look me up. Chris Fischer SRE Co.
I am looking at options for increasing productivity in fabricating a piece agricultural equipment. Currently due to the many components (battery boxes, moter mounts, cab mounts etc.) welded to the inside of the tubular frame it all must be welded and assembled in one large fixture. This places 4 welders working around each other as the fixture is rotated to various positions so they can reach joints and attempt to weld in flat positions. If the 3 frame tubes could be broken out as sub assemblies they could be welded much more efficiently. The tubes would still have to be placed in the main frame fixture to perform final assembly. If the frame tubes bow they would not fit in the main frame fixture for final assembly. Would VSR reduce the distortion enough to make this possible?
Ken,
It is possible to minimize weld distortion if you can weld and vibrate at the same time. Heat input is always a big factor so minimizing local heating by skip welding about the framework would be a good start. If you can produce reasonably straight subassemblies, final assembly should go a lot smoother. You didn't mention what type of tubing was being used and it's wall thickness, which may have some bearing on your results.
There is hope.
The material is Structural Tubing ASTM A500 7"x4"x 1/4". Also how long does a VSR cycle generally take?
Thanks
Ken,
ASTM 500 shapes, such as rectangular tubing, are generally cold formed in either welded or seamless shapes. Although this is a simple carbon steel similar to 1027, it can contain grain elongation patterns due to forming that can result in movement when disturbed by welding or machining. Under localized melting as in a weld pool, grain formation upon solidification is influenced by the surrounding solid material. To ease the transition, vibration during welding allows a finer grain structure to form which generally results in less deformation. That's the technique most often used during welding. As for vibration length of time, it depends on the weight and the application. It can be used continuously during welding or if used at stages along the way, treatment times vary from 15 minutes on the low side to perhaps 45 minutes on the long end.
Chris
Chris,
I have found on the net various manufacturers of vibratory equipment. Are there any advantages/disadvantages of any one manufacturere vs. another. Considerations could be ease of use, portability, effectiveness, life cycle, availability of repair parts, ease of repair, cost to purchase equipment, etc.
Thanks
Dear Ken,
There are several companies offering vibratory equipment. How to seperate the wheat from the chaff? As any good consumer might do, look for some of those things you mention. How much maintenance and repair does the unit require? What is the availability of spare parts and for how long? If I need factory service how long will it take? What kind of warranty does the hardware have? Etc. Be wary of any claims that this machine and this machine alone is the only machine capable of stress relieving. ( most vibratory stress relief machines produce relief to some degree. ) Be wary of any statements that this AC or DC vibrator is better than the other. Be wary of any claims that the unit is smart enough to know when a part is stress relieved or any documentation that purports to offer proof of reduction. ( The machines don't know, no more than a furnace would know ) If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. While the process is sound and does reduce residual stress, the similarity ends there.
Can anyone tell me,if I were to use VSR and weld conditioning in production (approved by the engineer) welding to ASME IX would I need to use it on the PQR as well?
Thanks,
Steve
I'm not sure ASME recognizes vibratory stress relief. To my recollection it seems to work on base metals with lower yield strength and is less effective on materials with higher yield strengths. That being the case, it is not as predictable as most code would like to see.
The applications where I've seen it used was for the reduction of residual stresses prior to machining and working to tight tolerances.
Al
Steve,
ASME Sec. IX, B31.3 or ASME Sec. VIII do not recognize VSR. There is a great article in the Fabricator Nov. 2009 about VSR being a viable option to replace traditional PWHT. You might look at that. To be honest I don't know why it is not being considered in the present time. To answer your question, I would think you would have to prove it works during the PQ. You might consider asking the Sec. IX code committee the question and see what they say.
This is a great question!!
Stop peeing in the pool then.
Al
When I was younger, I spent most of my summer days at the city pool until I got banned for peeing in it. When I tried to explain to the lifeguard that I was not the only one… she said, “I’m fully aware of that, but you’re the only one who does it from the diving board.” This happened just after I began to think she had a crush on me. I ended up talking to my dad about it and he told me that if I wanted to impress her, I needed to put a potato in my speedo swimming trunks. The only problem was, he forgot to tell me to put it in the front. I still remember the strange looks I got from the other swimmers. These days, I can still be found at the local pool, and even though I’m much older now, I still manage to get the attention of the ladies. The other day I thought I would try to get the attention of a really fit lifeguard who kept smiling at me, so I took off my armband floaties and jumped in. I almost drowned, but I think she was impressed.
He's baack!
Al
