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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / TIG or Braze Chromoly
- - By - Date 10-28-2000 20:11
I'm currently building roll cages out of DOM, TIG welding all the joints. I have a customer that is interested in a Chromoly (4130) cage. I understand that if the chromoly is TIG welded, it will need to be normalized. Is there anyway around the normalizing process... I've heard that somepeople braze chromoly cages??

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Gabe
Parent - By Goose (**) Date 10-29-2000 00:21
I am a novice welder myself, but have been around racecars for many years. You may want to check with the sanctioning body your customer races under. Many times they will state the rules in which certain materials need to be welded. I myself am a drag racer and have to follow the NHRA rulebook. For mild steel cages (almost all are ERW mild steel) MIG or TIG is allowed. For 4130 cages, NHRA requires the TIG process. I have spoken with several chassis builders and they used a mild steel filler rod (either ER70-S2 or S6). The moly cages can be heat normalized by using heat "crayons" at the correct temp.

In NHRA, mild steel cages are required to be .118 wall thickness min. and most builders use .135 wall to make sure they pass sonic testing on the outside of bends. With moly tubing, we are allowed to drop down to .085 wall thickness. I'm not sure why your customer wants 4130 unless he wants to save weight if you use a heavy wall DOM. It is my understanding that NASCAR uses .085 or .095 DOM, so weight savings of moly would probably be nill.

BTW, what type of racing are you building cages for?

Todd Geisler
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net
Malibu Muscle Racing
Parent - By awill4x4 (**) Date 10-29-2000 12:44
Hi Gabe.
My day job here in Australia is the manufacture and repair of sprintcar chassis. We TIG weld 4130 Cr/Moly all the time and we never normalise or heat treat the chassis after welding as it is not cost effective.
Weld failures are extremely rare and after seeing some of the extreme crashes these monsters perform we are very happy with our chassis.
Even in the USA the majority of sprintcar manufacturers do not stress relieve by heat treating. One company, Avenger, supposedly stress relieves using vibratory "Meta Lax" methods, but we are yet to be convinced of any benefit.
Hope this helps. Regards Andrew.
Parent - - By - Date 10-31-2000 12:28
There is alot of conflicting information about welding 4130. Here is what I've learned. As Goose has said, your sanctioning body probably has welding specifications.

Brazing 4130 is not recommended due to the relatively coarse grain structure of the material. Apparently the braze penetrates the grain and can cause "splintering".

TIG Welding 4130 does not require any type of post weld treatment. To properly "Normalize" a roll cage/chassis the complete structure would have to be put in an oven and heated to about 1600+ degrees F, (which would be impracticle and marginally beneficial). Any other type of stress relief hasn't really been proven to be of any significant benefit. Also, copper coated filler rod is not recommended, the copper can have the same effect as brazing.
Parent - - By Goose (**) Date 11-01-2000 01:11
I noticed on Lincolns web site that they recommend the ER70-S2 filler rod for 4130 moly welding. I assume they don't recommend the ER70-S6 because of the copper coating and the splintering you mentioned? or does the ER70-S2 have the coating as well?

I haven't welded moly tubing yet, but will sometime in the future and need to know what rod to use. I know the professional shops use a mild steel based rod.
Parent - By - Date 11-15-2000 13:09
I looked at Lincoln's web site and based on the MSDS both ER70-S2 and ER70-S6 appear to be copper coated. The copper on the rod will mostly burn off so it's not as bad as brazing, but can still be a problem. Uncoated rod tends to weld better also, but it will usually cost more. I will get some rod recommendations for you.

Mild rod is generally used on 4130 when there is no post-weld heat treating (hardening) required.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / TIG or Braze Chromoly

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