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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / welds on drawing
- - By jbrotzman (*) Date 04-28-2005 14:15
Simple question. Is it general practice to depict a weld prep on a part detail explicitly (i.e., show chamfered edges on parts joined by a groove weld) or to indicate the weld with a welding symbol only? Is this covered by AWS?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-28-2005 17:35
A simple reply would be to use whatever means necessary to clearly convey your instructions to your welder(welding symbol, notes on the drawing, etc...). We use just the welding symbol with the joint designation listed in the tail (ie. B-U4b)and the proper groove symbol to indicate what needs to be done. All of the fit-up and prep dimns or details are written in my WPS for each particular joint designation.
John Wright
Parent - - By jbrotzman (*) Date 04-28-2005 17:57
Thanks for the input. I'm trying to establish company standards and to find out what AWS and industry professionals consider standard. Drawing the features of the joint makes little sense to me since the welding symbol has all the requisite information, but I'd like to establish what others think and what the code specifies.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-28-2005 18:05
AWS A2.4 is the standard for symbols for welding, brazing, and NDE.
AWS D1.1:2004 Section 2 paragraph 2.2 and all sub paragraphs spell out what the contract drawings and shop drawings requirements are concerning weld/prep details.
John Wright
Parent - - By jbrotzman (*) Date 04-29-2005 12:18
Thank you for your response. I don't have this standard. I'll never get anyone to sign off on its purchase, either, since this isn't a place where a lot of welding goes on. If anyone has code available and can paraphrase this section to me I would appreciate it. I'm just trying to figure out whether it's common practice or a code requirement that little chamfers and J grooves be drawn on the detail parts or not. So far the consensus is that it is not 'standard' in that the majority of people do it or feel it's a requirement. If there is some statement one way or the other in AWS code I'm done.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-29-2005 13:18
If you can email me with a fax number, I can help you with what the code and the standard says.
John Wright
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-02-2005 00:06
Hi Jbrotzman!

Weldcome to the forum!
As far as "J" grooves are concerned, on the welding symbols, a broken arrow is usually attached to the reference line. The reason for the broken arrow is to point specifically to the only member of the joint that needs preparation prior to welding...

It is VERY important to position or orientate the welding symbol on the drawing so that the persons responsible for fabrication and/or welding interprets the drawing clearly enough so that there is no ambiguity as to which member of the joint in question, needs preparation. If for whatever reason, this cannot be accomplished, then a detail drawing referring to the joint in question "should" accompany the first set in order to avoid any confusion in certain circumstances.

Another instance whereby a detail drawing is definitely required of the joint in question, is when a specific taper or radius dimension (angular) or a specific depth or width (linear) dimension must be maintained within the shape of the "J" groove preparation itself. Examples of this is when one is working to a specific welding code. As John Wright mentioned previously, if one is working within the parameters of prequalified PJP & CJP welding procedure specifications or WPS's, one does not have to refer to a detail drawing other than the one(s) shown in the prequalified WPS('s) because on the welding symbol itself, the tail attached to the reference line will have the reference to the specific prequalified WPS.
Some examples would be to find a "BC-P8**" or a "BTC-P9-GF**", "BU-8", "TC-U8-GF", or a "BU-9", TC-U9a-GF in the tail section of the welding symbol. The person(s) responsible for fabrication/welding will then be able to refer to the specific prequalified welding procedure specification for joint preparation.
However, if the design requires that the joint preparation dimensions be above or below the specific parameters found in the prequalified WPS's, then a qualification of the joint must be done and a detail drawing "should" accompany the final drawing(s)...

All of these factors should be considered when deciding whether or not a detail drawing of the joint is required and in choosing the appropriate elements to include in the welding symbol that accompanies the detail. In the tail attached to the reference line on the welding symbol, there should be a reference to the specific detail drawing if the welding symbol is to be placed in the EOR (Engineer Of Record) approved drawing(s), provided that everything else mentioned above is considered.

Finally, if you're working to a specific welding code, then BUY a copy of the welding code!!! It will make your life a whole lot easier :)

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 05-02-2005 14:47
SSBN,
Just for curiosity, I'm going to ask you a question that has nothing to do with the question posed by Jbrotzman.
Is your jingle "Run silent, run deep" related with submarines? It's a submarine that needs to run silent and deep. Did you by chance served on a submarine of the US Navy?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By Dave (**) Date 05-02-2005 15:09
Professor, You are correct in making that assumption. SSBN 727 is the USS Michigan, a Trident class nuclear ballistic missile submarine. I don't know if "SSBN" served aboard the Michigan. I think more likey he was a shipyard worker and had a hand in building her. If you're curious about our ships you can find out much more by visiting www.navy.mil
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-03-2005 07:12
Hi Dave, Giovanni!

Dave is correct about my having a hand in building "her" and The USS Ohio which was the lead ship. I also had a hand in building the USS Illinois, USS Georgia, and more than a dozen Los Angeles class nuclear powered fast attack submarines when I worked as a welder and left as a pipe welder For General Dynamics - Electric Boat Division Shipyard located in "Rotten" Groton, CT. Miles and miles of welds are deposited when building a nuclear powered submarine. Are you "intimately" familiar with EB Dave?

To answer your question Giovanni, I also served in the United States Navy in many a submarine!!! In fact, it was the USN that really taught me how to weld and EB was my first civilian employer...
Here is their website: http://www.gdeb.com/

Now, my turn to ask a question!!!
Have you ever been inside a submarine while submerged to a depth of let's say - 300 meters? If you have, then you'll know how "silent" it is inside a sub compared to the external accustical signature at that depth.

When you're down in the water as deep as I mentioned, you want to have complete confidence in the soundness of the welds that hold the hull sections together and all of the other components that ensure hull integrity - are not only designed properly but, are also in excellent working condition because if this is not the case, "POOF"!!! Well, it's more like a big "Swoooosh" and then you're HISTORY!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent... Run Deep!!!


Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 05-03-2005 07:01
"Run silent, run deep" was the title of a book and later a movie about submarines. I was an army guy but I believe the phrase is significant to submariners. Kind of like "all the way" to airborne soldiers.
Bill
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-03-2005 07:16
Hi Bill!

Well said!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / welds on drawing

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