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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Weld Discontinuity
- - By FSmalley (**) Date 09-21-2005 20:10
We recently found a few bad welds on our welded components after they arrived in the field. What is the position we should take as far as all the other components welded for the same job. Should we assume that all the welds performed by that welder are bad? The contract doesn't make reference to welding standards or accept criteria.

More specific the weld had no fusion. Could someone please help.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-21-2005 20:38
If the contract doesn't reference any welding standards or acceptance criteria one has a hard time saying the welds are "bad welds" even if such is clearly the case.

If it were my contract, I would do a sampling inspection and perform any necessary repairs. I don't think you have a leg to stand on to go back to the supplier and complain. If the welds were made by your company, I would probably do a 100% inspection of all welds and repair all of the "bad welds" in order to negate liability potential.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 09-21-2005 21:13
jon20013 is right, but you definitely need to let the fabricator know about the poor quality. What types of components are you talking about? If they really cared about quality and their reputation, there would be no problem in the first place. I do know that things fall through the cracks sometimes, but it sounds much more extensive than that. Maybe if you tell them about the welds, they'll do whatever they need to do to rectify the situation. If they haven't been paid in full, hold some or all of their money until they make the corrections, or pay someone else to make the corrections (you may not want them touching your components again!).
Before awarding this fabricator any work, and even though there were no specs, did you ask to see their welding procedures, welder certs, and quality assurance program? If they can't readily produce any of these documents, it usually means that they're either scrambling to throw something together and hope that you don't know what you'll be looking at, or they don't have anything. That should immediately tell you something about their commitment to quality.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-22-2005 00:50
Scott, I read and re-read FSmalley's post and I couldn't clearly determine whether the prefabbed items were the work of a subcontractor or his shop. It sounds like whoever wrote the contract didn't know what they were doing or someone has overlooked something!

Regardless, the burden of responsibility sounds like it falls on FSmalley's company (they sound like the prime contractor). If the subcontract states nothing about quality standards or acceptance criteria holding money back will likely end in a lawsuit and only the lawyers will win!

On the other hand, if FSmalley's company is in fact the prime contractor and an injury or death results from faulty workmanship (even though no standards were cited) then the legal actions will truly begin. How many zero's are there in multi-multi million?
Parent - - By - Date 09-22-2005 04:02
Excellent points, Jon. I agree with your assumptions. I, too, thought it was FSmalley's own people. If so, they definitely have a quality issue to address.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 09-22-2005 13:21
Sorry for the misinterpretation, guys. I never gave it any consideration that the problems could be caused within one's own company. My past experience is that these types of quality issues are the work of sublet fabricators, and never within any fabrication shop that ever I've worked at.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-22-2005 13:59
No problem Scott. I'm not sure you misinterpreted, it was really hard to tell the way FSmalley worded his inquiry. Maybe he'll come back in and let us know so we can give him a better answer!
Parent - - By FSmalley (**) Date 09-22-2005 14:26
Sorry, gentlemen The product does actually come from the company i work for and I represent the company as the Weld Inspector but in this particular job there was no weld insection performed because the contract didn't require it. Myself and the Cheif engineer would like for all performed work to be weld inspected before release and this is just one of the cases that could get the point accross. Thank you very much for your help and if you have any further suggestions, I would be happy to hear them.
Parent - - By FSmalley (**) Date 09-22-2005 15:47
I need to clairify the statment i made "no weld insection performed because the contract didn't require it" No weld inspection paperwork needed to be submitted to the customer. Weld inspection was performed but not formally documented.
Parent - - By QCCWI (***) Date 09-22-2005 16:12
Here are 3 words to live by DOCUMENTATION,DOCUMENTATION,and DOCUMENTATION. Documentation will cover your butt when the crap hits the fan better than the words I did not let that go. In my shop I have documentation saying who fabricated it, who checked it, who welded it, and who checked the welds on it.If the jobsite calls and says this part was put on wrong,I know who I need to talk too because of documentation. Documentation will help you stop a problem before it gets too bad.

If checking of the welds was documented you could narrow your search down to those pieces checked by the same guy. I know what happened you told them not to document who checked what welds so someone in your shop lost any reason he/she had to check welds. I can hear what was said "Can't prove I let it go."
Parent - By FSmalley (**) Date 09-22-2005 16:25
We have documentation for who welded it, the date it was welded and who checked it. We know exactally who welded the part. I was refering to some formal documentation that we send to the customer.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-22-2005 14:00
Thanks Chuck! Compliments coming from you always brighten my day! If only I had 1/10 the knowledge you have!!!
Parent - - By QCCWI (***) Date 09-22-2005 15:56
Correct me if I am wrong(I have been before).If FSmalley works for an AISC Certified Fabricator then all the welds should have been visually inspected. AISC requires at a minumum 100% visual inspection of all welds.I work for an AISC Certified Fabricator and I have to maintain the minimum standards of AISC even it the contract states I am not required too.
If the welds are on structural steel then AWS D1.1 requires all welds be visually inspected.
Now this is just my opinon. Just because a reference to a standard was not made does not mean you do not have to inspect. It could have been left out on purpose. Would your company have done the job for the same price if it had referenced a code? Ask yourself this question if what ever the componets went on failed next week and someone got hurt and after investigation it was deemed to have been caused by bad welds. Who would need a lawyer?
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-22-2005 16:31
I think we might be blowing things out of proportion here. FSmalley; I would recommend a 100% inspection of all suspect parts and certainly 100% by the particular welder if it can be isolated to a single welder.

Documentation is good to have but not all of the Codes require inspections be "formally" documented.

Personally, I think we should be trying to help FSmalley with a proposed solution to the problem rather than blasting him or his company for things done "wrong." It sounds to me that now they've identified a problem they are looking to fix it which is a great place to start! First of all, if the welds were "checked" and they are as bad as you make them sound, terminate the inspector or at least take them out of the role of inspection. Pull the welders certs and have them requalify. Make sure you re-inspect all welds. Keep the matter "in-house" no need to involve the customer as long as the problems are corrected.

Good luck!
Parent - - By FSmalley (**) Date 09-22-2005 16:48
I think you hit the nail right on the head. Visual inspection did not pick up on this problem, the weld looks good on the surface but had very little fusion at all. Now given that we found out who welded this part, we would like to inspect all his welded parts for this project but seeing that visual inspection did not pickup on this part the first time we would need to perform another type of NDT to check the soundness of this employee's weld. The parts are now in a galvanized state, Are any of the NDT methods good for weld inspection through galvanize coating?
Parent - - By QCCWI (***) Date 09-22-2005 17:14
In my shop the welders do not always use the same welding machine.If it is the same why in your shop, can you honestly say it was the welder that was welding bad and not the welding machine.If the welding machine was not set to the right parameters there could be more pieces than just the ones that welder welded.
Parent - - By FSmalley (**) Date 09-22-2005 18:06
The Welding machines are calibrated on a yearly basis and 90 % of the welding machine are new (within 4 mo) We factored that into the process. We don't plan to reprimand the employee, just educate and while in the process of educating him we might revoke his certifications.
Parent - - By QCCWI (***) Date 09-22-2005 18:20
I document the calibration of the welding machines every six months here.But I have to check them at least once a month.I keep telling the welders the machines are set according to the weld procedure and must stay with in certain parameters. The welders always want to set the machine to how they like to weld instead of them adjusting to the machine.At times I want to break fingers but what good is a welder with broke fingers. But then again a welder who keeps turning knobs on the machine and running bad welds is as useful as a welder with a bunch of broke fingers. Bottom line is you cannot turn your back on some people.
Parent - By - Date 09-22-2005 18:27
Man, isn't that the truth! I often have very similar problems where I am at.
Mankenberg
Parent - - By - Date 09-22-2005 18:15
QCCWI,
With all due respect, if the welding machine was not set to the proper parameters, it is unquestionably the welder's fault.
Mankenberg
Parent - By QCCWI (***) Date 09-22-2005 18:29
I totally agree with you. It is the welders job to make sure the machine is set right. But how many welders can set a welding machine. I have watched welders set a machine by running a pass then turning up the volts.Run a pass turn up the wire speed. Run another pass turn down the volts.This keeps going on till the welder is happy with how the machine is welding never mind what the procedure says. I just watch him set it his way and when he is happy with how it is welding. I walk over and make him set it by the weld procedure and tell him that I will be back in about an hour and it better be set just like it is now.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-22-2005 18:31
FSmalley; I don't proclaim to be an NDE expert, have dealt with it for 25 years or so but I leave that to folks who enjoy it... you may get something meaningful from an MT but to be really safe, you probably want to remove the galvanize, perform your inspections and then recoat with a cold galvanizing.

With all due respect to those implying the welding machine might be out of parameters, I say BAH! While I also calibrate our welding machines, I do it simply to shut the auditors up. Most Codes do NOT require calibration and MOST *good* shops invoke periodic in-process surveillance/monitoring of the welding parameters with a tong gage anyway. Any welder worth his/her salt will set the machine to put a proper weld down. The *good* ones will tell their welding engineer or management that their is a problem with either the machine or the WPS. If the welder keeps adjusting the machine it's likely the engineer didn't give him/her a broad enough set of parameters to work within.

I really don't mean any disrespect but people that get on that kick sound like newbie CWI's who should probably listen (or read) before speaking.
Parent - By QCCWI (***) Date 09-22-2005 18:45
Jon,
You cannot tell me that you have never seen a welder weld with a machine that was not set within the parameters of a weld procedure. I personally think calibrating a welding machine is a waste of time and money.But I do not write the rules I just have to follow them.You keep saying *good* ones,how many good welders are on this planet compared to the bad ones.Some welders do not have any pride in the work they do and that is a problem we all have to put up with. When I was welding I wanted to be the best welder on the planet. I might not have ever been the best but it was not because I did not try.

Parent - - By - Date 09-22-2005 18:52
Jon,
I hear what you're saying and agree with most of it. However, with all due respect, when a welding machine is "out of parameters" (and by parameters I presume we are speaking of amps, volts, and travel speed as described on an approved WPS), it is "out of parameters" because the welder set his machine that way. Sometimes the width of the range of welding parameters on a WPS is restricted for various and valid reasons. When heat input control is required, for instance, the welding engineer cannot just arbitrarily widen the qualified parameter range and the welder cannot just arbitrarily work outside of the qualified parameter range.
I'll give another example, just for fun. We just qualified a GMAW procedure for single-side CJP welding of monel, using 0.045" filler. The specifications in use restrict us to the use of a J-groove (these are all tee-joints). The parameters that are on the WPS for the root pass are 200-220 amps, 27.5-28.5 volts, and a wire feed speed of 400-450 inches per minute. These are very tight parameters indeed , but that is because they are the only parameters that worked during WPS qualification. Going outside of this range resulted in either incomplete penetration/fusion problems or blowing through the root.

I agree that an experienced welder can indicate to those who develop the WPSs when in certain cases tight parameter ranges are causing difficulties in welding. It should then be incumbent upon the welding engineer to do what he/she can to help - for the example of a WPS that requires heat input control, possibly additional PQTs can be run that will allow wider parameter ranges.
And FYI I'm not exactly a newbie CWI.
Best regards,
Mankenberg
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-22-2005 19:08
kipmank; sorry about the newbie remark it wasn't aimed at anyone specific but I hear this stuff so often. I have certainly seen enough of your postings to have gained a respect for your insight. I am in the nuclear fabrication business, began my career as a welder more than 32 years ago, have worked in each position up to that of welding engineer, where I currently feel right at home. I've had my CWI (now SCWI) since 1981.

Maybe I'm just getting worn out hearing all of the zealots ready to crucify, condemn or otherwise think the welder is cheating behind their backs at every stage; THAT is one mark of a newbie. With regard to good welders vs. those who don't have any pride, well... there's plenty of each, certainly enough to go around. I've worked with both kinds and certianly won't put up with one that doesn't have any pride in their workmanship.

My intent coming into this particular thread was to help find a solution the problems FSmalley has spoken about, not to badger him about his people, procedures or the situation he has found himself in.
Parent - - By - Date 09-22-2005 19:22
Jon,
No need to apologize. I was not offended in the least. And you are right and I should actually apologize because I did get way off the topic raised by FSmalley.
Mankenberg
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-22-2005 19:30
It's an easy thing to do when ya got a lot of talented folks that start brainstorming; I'm also bad for getting off topic so no need to apologize to me! ;-)
Parent - By FSmalley (**) Date 09-22-2005 19:59
Well I sure did cause alot of good brainstorming !!! We decided to have a meeting with the shop supervisor and go over education for welders and inspection critera.

I thank you all for some great advise. I'm sure i will be back with some more questions at some point.
Parent - By Kamaruzaman (*) Date 09-23-2005 03:47
Could you inform which shapes of that goods,whether plate, pipe or tubular. weld process and its position too, overhead, verticle, downhand etc.

Then whereas the 'defect ' is?
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-22-2005 19:59
Gentlemen,
Let me say that there's a difference between "Defect" and "Discontinuity". All defects are discontinuities but not all discontinuities are defects.
The difference is that a discontinuity is acceptable under the applicable code or standard, whereas the defect is not. Therefore, a discontinuity doesn't need to be corrected but the defect does.
So, first thing to do is to compare the suspected point or area with what the code or standard says.
Now, if FS' contract doesn't make any reference to any code or standard, there's always the Good Engineering Practice that every self respecting engineer should follow.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - By FSmalley (**) Date 09-22-2005 20:07
Your right, I remember that from my CWI class. I guess more appropriatly this should have been named "weld Defect"
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-22-2005 20:23
As always, well said and excellent point Professor Crisi!
Parent - - By - Date 09-22-2005 20:36
I agree. A discontinuity is an abnormality that does not affect the integrity of the weld. A defect does affect the integrity of the weld and should be repaired. But, in this case where there is no standard for acceptability, how can these welds be considered either one of them? To be a discontinuity or a defect, a standard of acceptability or reject has to be identified. Otherwise even a defect can be accepted. Good Engineering Practice can be interpreted different ways by different people. That is why it is Good Construction Practice to have written acceptable and reject procedues. Without written guidelines, a weld discontinuity or defect is anybody's opinion.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-23-2005 21:04
What's the so called Good Engineering Practice? It's the wealth of knowledge gained over years and years of experience by thousands of engineers, each one on his (her) specific area of work. In this case, it would be Welding.

Very seldom is the Good Engineering Practice written in academic books. A consistent part of it is contained in the many engineering documents issued over the years by consulting and project engineering firms, large manufacturing companies and other outfits well known for their technical competence. Example of these documents are General Specifications, Engineering Standards, Data Sheets, Catalogs, Instruction Manuals, Erection Procedures, and the like.

Sometimes these documents are disclosed to third parties. Examples are the General Specifications and Data Sheets that the consulting and project engineering firms hand over to their clients and sub-contractors and that make part of a particular project. In my many years of professional experience I've always bothered to keep a copy with me. Sometimes, however, the documents are kept locked under seven keys because they make part of the company's Know How.

Another consistent part is not written anywhere. It's contained in the heads of thousands of engineers working for the companies I've spoken above and have at least fifteen years of professional, hands on, experience. This wealth of knowledge, not written anywhere, is transmitted verbally from generation to generation. Example: when I was a 24 years old "just out of school" engineer, I went to work for an erection company and became the contractor "junior engineer" for the construction of a small sized power plant. I stuck to the boiler and turbogenerator field engineers and "sucked their brains" as much as I could. They were over 60 years old, saw my enthusiasm for learning things and gladly taught me, if not all, at least a good part of their experience. This happened more than 40 years ago, and I've never seen written anywhere the things they taught me.

If Chuck Meadows and me were responsible for the same construction job, he as the client (the soft side) and me as the contractor (the hard side, the only one I've ever been into), I've got no doubts that, based on our many years of experience, we would agree in the great great majority of the welds quality controls, either visual, radiographic etc. In the vey few cases of disagreement, what would we do? We'd go to the applicable code or standard, or engineering specification or else, to see what thay say.

Why, if no code, standard nor engineering spec is mentioned in FS' contract? Because the Good Engineering Practice says that a weld must be decently done, regardless of what the contract says, and neither Chuck nor me would accept an undecent weld. That's what we're engineers for.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-25-2005 21:29
Giovanni; what an eloquent response! It's a great pleasure reading your wisdom on these boards, I too have many years of experience and I have fond memories of the mentor's who have guided me in my career, so many have now passed. While I certainly don't consider myself anything special in the engineering world, I have been really and truly blessed by association and being able to pick the brains of many of the greats! In the end, it's a very rewarding feeling when we're able to give something back to the generations following in our footsteps. Although we've never met in person, I feel I would consider you a very good and dear friend.
Parent - - By - Date 09-25-2005 22:52
Giovanni,
Very well communicated. I certainly agree with every aspect of your commentary. Thank you for giving excellent information along with excellent examples. Thank you..

Chuck
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-26-2005 09:38
Chuck, you know what I said to Giovanni holds true to you as well!
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-26-2005 23:29
Chuck and Jon,
thankyou very much for your kind words on my person.
Giovanni
Parent - By - Date 09-26-2005 23:31
Giovanni,
Don't thank us, as they are well deserved.

Chuck
Parent - By g32141 (**) Date 09-23-2005 02:41
I have an example of a discontinuity and a defect with API 1104.

I am doing AUT inspection of pipe girth welds and get 2 discontinuities within 300 mm. API says anything over 50mm within 300mm must be repaired if it is a linear defect. Within this 300 mm there is one that is 40 mm and another 60mm. Between the two is clean metal for 200 mm. The 60 mm defect must be repaired and the 40 mm defect can be left alone. Here is my problem: What happens when the repair welder deposits a 40 mm discontinuity in the repaired area which by itself is ok but now it accumulates to 80 mm with the unrepaired 40 mm? Now it is 80 mm in within 300 mm. Now the weld is a cut out. I am working on a pipeline in Sao Paulo by the way. This has already happenned. In the attempt to avoid cutouts I just tell them to repair both, that way a welder can put in a 50 mm discontinuity as opposed to a 20 mm one that will still accumulate with the unrepaired one.

Sometimes they ask me why they need to reapair something that is 40 mm when the code says 50 mm. I said to avoid a cut out.

Sometimes they want to repair a root defect 700 mm in length just to fail the repair. I always tell them if you have a repair that long it will be faster and more beneficial for them to cut the weld out instead because they could possibly fail the repair and have to cut it out anyway. It is a gamble that they take and most of the time they lose.
It is very difficult to get this point accross to the QC people here.
Parent - By Kamaruzaman (*) Date 09-23-2005 03:52
Which component of that goods and it used for.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Weld Discontinuity

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