AISC Certification

By swnorris (****)

Date 11-03-2005 17:29

There is no AISC certification for detailers/engineers. Some of the detailers we use don't really know the ASD manual like they should. I catch things on shop drawings all the time that they get paid a lot of money to supposedly already know. When I call them and tell them what they did or didn't do, they turn around and do the same thing on the next job. For what its worth, here's a link to AISC member detailers (in red). We're having trouble finding good detailers for the work that we have sold. I had to pass this list on to our project management team, in hopes of finding a few good ones.

http://www.aisc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Modern_Steel_Construction3/February_2005/30738_detailers_march25.pdf

As for a crayola operator, my 2 year old daughter is certified, and I have the marks on my living room wall as documentation.

By QCCWI

Date 11-03-2005 18:53

Scott,
I know you have seen where the detailer prints out the drawings then has to make changes. But instead of going back to the computer to start over,he/she pulls out the white out and the pen and proceeds to make this part a P7 and the other part is P7X. He/She leaves parts that were drawn at the same elevation originally then changes the dimensions to one making it 4 ft higher than the other 1 but both parts are shown at the same location with one on the near side and one on the far side. The detailer uses TC bolts then goes back and whites out the TC but leaves it on about 5 drawings so I have to call him/her to find out whether I need to use TC bolts or did he/she run out of white out.

In other words I get drawings that look like the detailers 2 year old daughter got her hands on them at the detailers house.

With the way my luck is running I will get a call next week about why I cannot get the drawings I was promised because his/her child colored on them.

By swnorris (****)

Date 11-03-2005 22:07

I hear ya. One of my favorites is how I have to go back 99% of the time and tell the detailer that he didn't detail any plate washers to cover the long slots in the shop bolted connection angles. The last time this happened, the detailer revised the drawing to show them 1/4" thick. We once had a detailer leave off all the welding symbols on a job. I called him, and he said "You guys know more about how much weld is needed than I do".

By G.S.Crisi (****)

Date 11-03-2005 22:23

Comment n° 1. English being not my mother language, I don't feel ashamed to ask two questions: what's a crayola? What does TC mean?

Comment n° 2: not being a structural steel engineer nor a structural steel drafstman, I don't feel ashamed to say that here in Brazil there are a few structural steel calculation, design and detailing computer programs that, according to the people who sell them, are easy to operate and allow anybody who is reasonably familiar with structural steel to make calculations and drawings, either design and fabrication ones.
I can't believe that in the USA there are not such programs.

Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil

By swnorris (****)

Date 11-03-2005 22:46

Giovanni,

Crayola is a brand of crayon that kids generally use with coloring books (unless they decide to color the living room walls). When I was a kid they only came in the 8 basic colors; black, brown, green, red, purple, blue, yellow, and orange. I think they're up to 64 different colors now.

TC means tension control or torque control.

There are all kinds of computer detailing programs here too. As far as the quality of drawings here, we pay the detailer to have each drawing checked, but with all the errors we end up with, we're definitely not getting our moneys worth. It's very frustrating to say the least. The fabrication shop is the last defense against something getting out to the field and causing problems, and 99.9% of the time we are able to read between the lines and do the right thing, in spite of the drawings. I can almost guarantee you that it is the same way in other structural fabrication shops too.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-03-2005 23:22

How many of you have comments about the shop drawings that Xsteel produces?
Curious.
John Wright

By QCCWI

Date 11-04-2005 11:06

I don't really care for Xsteel but a good detailer can do a good job with it but a bad detailer can really mess up with it.From where I am sitting,90% of the detailers we seem to use are the bad ones.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-04-2005 13:07

From what I have noticed about jobs detailed by Xsteel:

1)Shop hours run way over the estimate.
2)Fitters spend lots of time trying to figure out what the drawing is trying to show.
3)Drawings are not checked for accuracy. I'm told that the detailer simply checks the input and that this is common practice with Xsteel detailers.
4)Work Points are out off the steel.
5)Skewed end plates have the out to out dimns shown from out at the fartherest most edge of the plates that are on skew rather than at the beam centerline face of the plate.
6) There are no point to point or set back dimns anywhere on any piece detail and you have to rely on the cut length shown in the bill of material.

I can just go on and on about how sorry the drawing presentation is with Xsteel. But in it's defense, the steel goes up without a hitch. How? I have no clue because it leaves the fitter's table with all of us scratching our head hoping it's right because it doesn't give the checker any way to check the dimns.
end of rant
John Wright

By G.S.Crisi (****)

Date 11-04-2005 16:06

Comment to paragraph 2) of John's reply:
I might be an oldtimer, but for me, the drawings that were made 30 years ago by the draftsmen on the drawing board and then were transformed into heliographic copies (blueprints), are easier to understand than the drawings made nowadays by computers.
Giovanni S. Crisi

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-04-2005 16:21

Giovanni,
When I was new to the drawing room, the old timers told me to make my shop drawings so that a third grader can read it and interpet what the drawing was trying to communicate to the fitter. It made you think through your design and you would take into consideration that a fitter does not have room to lay out a 500' radius or you would have to take into consideration the tools that the fitter had at his disposal to use. Typically a 24" framing square, a 12" combination square, couple of tape measures of various lengths, and maybe a chalk line and a 4' level were all of the tools he would have to make up his tool box.
It is a very different world today.
John Wright

By QCCWI

Date 11-04-2005 16:11

I agree with you there. Xsteel loves to give you a dimension from the middle of no where. At times it seems you need 3 tape measures, 4 squares and 10 hands to put on 1 plate with 2 holes in it.Then to make matters worse it the part is on a 2" in 12 " slope but that slope is coming of a point that is about 10" away from anything. Seems Xsteel puts a line in outerspace,calls it a work point, and all the holes are 6-5/8 of of that line. Then you spent 3 hrs laying all the lines out holding this square here tape measure there just to find out the holes are 3" down from the top flange. Then you hope like hell 3" down to the hole works for the whole job.

I believe the only lines and dimensions that need to be on a drawing are the ones I need to fabricate the piece.I get a drawing with a 60 unnecessary lines and have to call the detailer because he/she left the only dimension that I needed off of the drawings.I get the revised drawing and it will have 61 lines and a cloud.