Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Help with cope crack
- - By MICHAEL B (*) Date 11-22-2005 12:11
We are currently doing a galvanized job. We have experienced several beams having cope crack at the radius of cope outs. We tried welding around the radius on the web with 7018, that worked for a while. Now they are telling me it's even cracking through the weld. A36 seems to be fine, the Grade 50 material is what seems to be doing the cracking. Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can stop this from happening? Material ranges from W8X10 to W36X194 and columns as big as W14X550 and it is happening to a variety of shapes (not just the big ones that have much thicker flanges than webs, which we know can cause cope cracks more often). Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Michael
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-22-2005 13:43
MT or PT the copes before they are sent to the galvanizer. Verify that it is definitely occuring in the bath, then pay your galvanizer a visit. My experience has been that something within the galvanizing process was out of kilter when the cope cracks start showing up. I've tried gaining access to the galvanizer's bath analysis to no avail, they say that is propietary infomation and will not share. I have been told that when the percentages of tin get to a certain level that cracking is more prominent than when the tin is kept below that level. Also the temp of the pot and dwell time that the piece is within the bath seems to be relavant also. We have had cracking issues before, but only with one certain galvanizer in 35 years of working in this business. I've been told that they have since replaced thier equipment and so far we have not experienced the cracking like we have from them before. Good Luck running your problems down. I have ran into dead ends when I was looking for the causes. The galvanizer quotes an old article about how no one seems to know what causes it and sometimes it just happens. Well, I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a minute, something is causing it but no one wants to find out what that is, for some reason. [rant off]
John Wright
Parent - By labtechy (*) Date 12-06-2005 18:33
John,
I wrote to you before about a very similiar problem. After doing a check as to who galvanized what and what needed rework, a pattern developed. It turned out to be two different Galvanizers. They are on the slow track now until they get their house in order.
This problem has led us to document everything so maint. & tracking can address the problem immediately. A web search turned up quite a few problems which sound similiar.
Parent - By QCCWI (***) Date 11-22-2005 14:26
I have heard several times(not saying the I believe it) that the cracks are caused by the grinding of the cope.We can send 200 beams to the galvanizer and none of them come back with cracks. A month later we send 5 beams and they all come back with cracks. Then we have to use the polishing brush (as my boss calls it) which is nothing more than a grinding wheel made from 80 grit sand paper on the copes before we send the next load of beams to the galvanizer.After about a month we stop polishing the copes and try our luck agian. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose.

Personally if I was sending material with thick flanges and webs I would make sure the copes and ratholes get grinded smooth and I would MT them, just because the amount of time it would take to fix the crack and only if the EOR would let me fix it.
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 11-22-2005 14:34
I recall John's difficulties with the cracking. We too have experienced that and have never found a distinct cause for the problem. One thing that seems to aggravate the cracking is whenever pieces have been rolled, bent, or heated so that you might expect residual stresses left in the steel.
I have pictures of short (2 or 3 feet long) 10 x 10 square tubes that are completely open on the ends, that split at the ends in the bend radius. In that case, venting was definitely not the problem.
In another case some W21 beams were rolled to about a 50' radius. Those had also received some heating to fine tune the radius. Cracking was noted as radiating from the outer flanges wherever heating had occured, and also from the raised letters that Citisteel rolls into their beams.

If you have not already tried this, I would try burning your copes with a larger radius, and with the smallest torch tip that will still do a neat job. I would also be sure to grind the cope thoroughly, including breaking the edges.

Do you have the MTR's for the beams that are cracking? Have you noticed a significant difference in the chemical and mechanical properties for the beams that do crack versus the beams that do not? It might be helpful to note that; maybe it is possible to predict the liklihood of cracking.

Chet Guilford
Parent - By RBeldyk (**) Date 11-22-2005 15:21 Edited 01-21-2009 16:47
This is a worldwide problem, a quick literature search will document problems in Germany, Japan, UK, South Africa and the United States.

A few papers

"Liquid metal assisted cracking of galvanised steelwork: A very rare but important issue" - 11/06/04
http://www.scoss.org.uk/publications/rtf/LMAC_Final_Version_3.pdf

"Galvanizing Structural Steelwork - An approach to the management of Liquid Metal Assisted Cracking" http://www.steelconstruction.org/steelconstruction/view?entityID=107&entityName=publication&jsp=source&sessionID=-1132669845955

The following is the link to the report from Mr. Tom Kinstler that was produced with help from AISC.
http://www.aisc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Technical_Answers&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=30636

Along with the Summer 2004 Inspection Trends article "Inspection for Galvanization-Related Cracking in Steel Structures"

Tin, Bismuth and other low-melting points elements in the galvanizing bath do play a role in Liquid Metal Embrittlemnt or Liquid Metal Assisted Cracking.

From the Fall 2005 Inspection trends article -
"The presences of low melting point elements such as Tin and Bismuth, in the galvanizing melt have a role in causing LME.  However, the relative significance of melt-composition in the galvanizing bath on the potential for steel cracking is not fully understood. 

The inspector should always obtain a copy of the bath analysis, looking at the Tin, Bismuth and Lead level. SEM and XDS analysis of the crack surfaces have indicated high concentrations of these elements in the cracks.  If the %Tin (wt) + % Lead (wt) is greater than 1.3% (by weight) or the %Bismuth (wt) is greater than  0.1% (by weight) a closer examination for cracking is warranted, preferable with Dry AC Yoke  MT."

A literature search will reveal that cracking due to liquid metal embrittlement during galvanizing of steel, has been known since at least the 1930s. Known only as an occasional minor problem, until recently. During the past decade, galvanizers have increased their kettle size allowing larger items to be dipped as a single piece. As these assemblies have increased in size and complexity so have the occurrences of LME increased. In the mid 2002 several cracks were visible observed in a newly erected galvanized truss bridges. The crack surfaces observed were coated with the galvanizing alloy. To determine if additional cracking had occurred several non-destructive examinations methods were evaluated. By employing the common, low cost NDE method of AC yoke magnetic particle inspection yielded the observation of many additional hidden cracks.  A key paradigm of cracks is they never heal themselves nor go away, but continue to increase in size over time, eventually growing large enough to cause a failure.  Complex assemblies, like road sign structures, roof trusses, communication towers and bridges, all share the three ingredients for a hidden LME crack to occur; stress, liquid metal contact and material susceptibility. 

Since there is a potential for a catastrophic failure to occur with a galvanized structure, methods to locate the discontinuities are required. Current, traditional technologies include: Visual, Magnetic Particle, Ultrasonics, manual and automated Shear Wave, and Phased Array UT, Eddy current and ACFM Alternating Current Field Measurement. Out of these Magnet Partcile MT and ACFM  Alternating Current Field Measurement work the best to uncover these defects/discontinuities.

In a fabrication shop the assemblies should be inspected prior to galvanizing, as per many of the fabrication codes and specifications that currently exist, i.e. direct observation of the welds and base material. However, these same codes do not require and inspection, sans  cosmetic appearance following Galvanizing.

Discontinuities that could result in a catastrophic failure may be hidden beneath the galvanized coatings in complex assemblies.   If a failure were to occur in these assembles, the failure could result in the loss of life and property. In the UK cracks in a galvanized structure were observed after four years of service during an annual inspection when the crack grow and broke the surface this resulted in the replacement of the structure. In the US a bridge was repaired after two years of service when a crack was observed.  In Germany a new parking garage showed many cope cracks and had to be replaced.  Prof Sedlacek, at al, in Germany has investigated LME and Cope Cracking of Hot Dipped Steel Beams associated with a parking garage.
"Zum Feuerverzinken von Stahlkonstruktionen - Ursachen und Lösungsvorschläge zum Problem der Rißbildung " http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/jissue/110456644   
"Zur sicheren Anwendung feuerverzinkter Stahlträger" http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/jissue/109568359
"Reliable application of hot dipped zinc coating of steel beams"

In all these cases the crack surfaces were covered with material from galvanizing (zinc, tin, bismuth, aluminium ...).  

If you have the MTR's calculate the the Carbon Equivalent in Zinc for Valid for Carbon < 0.12%

CEZ  CEZ=  C + Si/17 + Mn/7.5 + Cr/4.5 + Cu/13 + Ni/17 + Mo/3.0 + V/1.5 + Nb/2 + Ti/4.5 + 420B === <0.44

CEZ should be less tan or equal to 0.44

I am a firm believe that a bath analysis is required, and should be given to the customer. However with the ASTM Committee A05 on Metallic-Coated Iron and Steel Products consists of many galvaniziers that are opposed to this. Many State DOT's are now requiring a bath analysis, so this might change.

edit" added url tags so that the links are now clickable-JW
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 11-22-2005 23:39
We too have had this problem in the past. Search this site for previous discussions on the subject. Mr. Beldyk has been great at getting me information on this in the past. If it works well into your job delivery schedule and to help the industry research this, document with photos and conditions all cracks and forward them to Mr. Beldyk and AISC. Start to document during fabrication and before galvanizing. We too have polished radii to fine finish and a good radius and still had cracks. It is frustrating to spend excess time and still have cracks.

Repairing these cracks was performed by gouging and/or grinding along the crack to 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through the thickness of the member and past the end of the crack (D1.1 says 2" past), removing zinc within at least 1" away from weld and welding up that side with a low hydrogen process. Treat it as a CJP weld. Turning the member over and repeating the process. Assure you have removed the crack with MT. Repair the galvanized as you normally would damaged galvanizing.
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 11-23-2005 16:03
I have seen this problem when the cope was done by flame cutting or gouging, and then sending off to be galvanized. How it was explained to me was the flame cut surface would have these cuts (even if you ground over them) and the hot galvanizing would enter those areas and start to cause cracking. I did not believe it untill I saw it with my own eyes.
Jim
Parent - - By MICHAEL B (*) Date 11-23-2005 16:39
Thanks for all the replies gentlemen, they have been very helpful.
Michael
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-23-2005 17:42 Edited 01-21-2009 16:42
Flame cutting may not always be the cause of cracking from galvanizing. The pieces of tubing in these pics were sawed, not flame cut, and as you can see they are open on both ends, so that rules out venting problems.
No need for NDT to find these cracks :) Although I did MT and UT these pieces and found that the extent of the damage was only what you could see with your eye.
Enjoy.....









John Wright
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-21-2009 16:48
Bump for Bob G.
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 01-23-2009 12:26
John, good pics. Now I think I've seen everything. Wow!! Can't blame these on an iron worker using a torch. Looks like a good case for failure analysis. We use Saint Louis Testing.

Jim
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-26-2009 14:41
I would not be surprised to find that the cracking problem was related to hydrogen assisted cracking.

The wide flange sections are rolled with their flanges skewed, then they are straightened to be perpendicular to the web and parallel to each other. This results in residual stresses. The materials that seem to be more prone to cracking during HDG are the higher strength steels. Cutting the cope without preheating can easily result in hard HAZ adjacent to the cut and thermally induced residual stresses.

The photos of the cracks in the HSS provided by John are formed. Again, the forming operation results in very high residual stresses in the areas of the bends. Even if the Ce is relatively low, the areas are strain hardened.

The HDG operation includes placing the material into an acid bath to prepare the material for the galvanizing bath. The acid is rich in [H] which can easily permeate the steel and promote hydrogen assisted cracking.

As for the tin and bismuth, they may wet the grain boundaries and may form eutectic that are weak and result in cracks.

There are a couple of ASTM standards that address galvanizing and as already mentioned, they place limits on aluminum, tin, and bismuth. It may serve you well to include them as part of the purchasing requirements to support a claim if you have problems with cracking or other issues.

Since I currently have a project that has been HDG, I'll will look to see if there are similar problems.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Help with cope crack

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill