Quality Management Difficulties

Date 01-31-2006 05:24

Hello rm0412, if you are having a hard time getting across to your management the importance of testing and examination you might want to mention to them that liability for failures in structures and other things that they are fabricating will cost them far more than the additional time and effort that testing and examination will cost and in business that is the bottom line. They might also find that they will qualify for more job oportunities due to their attention to facility and or personnel certification. They might even enjoy better insurance rates for taking the time to pay attention to the things you are talking about. Don't give up, you are on the right track even if they don't think so and good luck on your quest. Regards, aevald

By thcqci

Date 01-31-2006 12:05

Hang in there and keep showing management how doing quality work pays off in the long run. Use the position to show how doing a quality job right the first time saves re-work costs; how you can help them save money by doing what is allowed instead of just telling them what is not allowed. As said above, doing it wrong has the potential to cost much more than doing it right. Plus demonstrating that you can do it right opens your company up to more business which adds to the bank account also. As you demonstrate this principle, you will gain more people on your side and things will become easier. You have a long road ahead of you, but keep down the straight path. Pick your battles. Educate, educate, educate!

By the way, welcome to the forum.

By cryogenicshaun (**)

Date 01-31-2006 12:11

you dont by any chance work for a company in the houston area do you? i worked for a company just like that. lol. i have to agree with the guys above on their views of the situation. its very hard especially when its a small company that are set in their ways, and have the whole " we've never had anything go wrong so far " attitude. when they bid a job they should have the inspection cost worked in to the price. alot of small companies will try to save that extra money by shortcutting. hang in there bud, and dont give up. youre on the right track.

By rm0412 Date 01-31-2006 12:22

You're all right, it sounds like you've been in this situation. They really need their whole way of thinking to change. We are starting to have training meetings once a month. That's why I was looking for some training material along the lines of the economics of quality. I think that some of them think I dream this stuff up.

By - Date 01-31-2006 13:28

You might try looking at what the ASQ (http://www.asq.org) has available. I know they have alot of training materials related to quality and various quality fields (nothing welding specific), and that alot of the stuff is presented in economic terms to really help drive home the point to upper management.
Mankenberg

By tito

Date 01-31-2006 14:01

I feel for ya! I've worked for a contractor that was like that. But the sad part was, my QC Manager was right in there with them. At that company, QC's function was basically to document and keep records. No inspection (in-houuse), no quality improvement, no nothing. Just go out there and write down what welder made what weld and make sure x-ray got done. No need to look at radiographs, if they say the welds are good leave them alone. No need to witness hydro, the welders will do it. Upon trying to "inspect" anything, I was told it was not necessary by the "production" people, and when trying to explain to my QC Manager about things that were wrong, I got "there's nothing we can do about it". I didn't stay there long.

There are numerous reasons why a solid and functional Quality program is important. Depending on the type of industry, the quality of the product can lead to personal safety concerns. The quality of the product can also determine if a business is destined to become a "leader" or just a cheap imitation. There is no substitute for quality. Companies with poor quality systems usally go out of business because they get a bad name for themselves. Try this one - ask you managers what brand of hand tools they prefer, wrenches for example. I guarantee it's not the one from the dollar store. They prefer the ones that are; 1)dependable 2)reliable 3)sturdy 4)tough 5)wont break on you 6)useability...etc. Why? Because they are better quality. They are this way because of strict adherance to a documented quality system that the whole company follows.

I could go on for days about the importance of quality. It's not easy trying to change people's mindset about the way they do their work. I'm going through it right now at the company I'm with, but luckily there are some really "higher ups" that know the importance of this. So, there is alot of resistance but, there is also alot of backup.

Didn't mean to ramble!

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 01-31-2006 16:48

I'm not disagreeing with any of the statements made here but one has to ask, if the customer didn't / doesn't require a certain examination then why are you doing them?

Yes, I understand due diligence.

Have you stopped to wonder why your Company has hired a QC Manager? What is your supposed function?

I am not talking down to you, please understand, these are questions you should consider asking your Boss, or at very least, asking yourself! Obviously someone had the forethought to hire a QC Representative so there must be more background than what you've been made privvy to...

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-31-2006 19:58

Jon,
I agree with not over inspecting, after all who has the time if it really isn't required by the customer's contract. However things should, at a minimum, meet specific codes that are specified by the contract specs.
Most, if not all, welding in my line of work must, at a minimum, meet AWS D1.1: current edition Table 6.1.
Just a few thoughts to consider,
John Wright

edit: Had another after thought:)
One thing that has opened a few eyes in the upper management here was having these AISC audits to the new building standard. management is forced to review and participate in the Internal Audits, Policies and Procedures. This forces them to face up to the codes that apply and it simply makes my job easier not having to try and convince them that certain things are required, and not just by me making work for myself to keep busy.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 01-31-2006 20:48

I agree with jon's position for the most part. It seems your company must have a need for a quality control program or else they would not have a QC Manager.
One of the problems with a forum is that it can be hard to see the whole picture so bear with me.
It could well be that you have not been given your job description. Or, your company could be waiting for you to develop a program because they really aren't sure what they need.
They might be waiting for you to take the reins and if that is the case then you might think of your job as a great opportunity. Of course that also means you have a lot of work to do.

One of the most difficult parts of quality control is that it is often thought of as a "necessary evil" or burden on the overhead. So, along with the other suggestions, I want to add that you could develop a system to record in-house inspections your company has performed on it's products (if you don't have it already). Note how much rework has been required in-shop; record any customer complaints and the cost to resolve them. With that database, you should be able to demonstrate the costs of poor quality and justify inspections and training. Once you can measure the cost of sub-standard quality you will probably have better support from other managers.

Chet Guilford

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 01-31-2006 21:23

Thanks Guy's. Chet, thats exactly what I was getting at, there seems to be something missing and maybe none of us kknow what, including the person posing the question... By the way, to rm0412, is the person telling you these things your direct manager? What is his/her title and does he/she happen to be responsible for production? Perhaps there may be a conflict in your case that can only be resolved at a higher level? Wishing you luck, would like to hear your answer...

By rm0412 Date 01-31-2006 23:45

I appreciate everyone's input. I realize it's hard to have all the facts out there in a form setting. Basically I work for one of our Area Managers/Vice President. He works directly for the majority owner/President. They back me up, along with 1 or 2 other Area Managers. However, the goal that we have is to get everyone onboard with our QC program by convincing them that this is what is best for our company. We would rather change their minds than change management. (If possible) For the record, the problem with not doing the required Examination and testing, even when a customer doesn't want it done, is that our contract is based on our work being done in accordance with applicable codes and standards. When something is wrong, they forget they said they didn't want us to do that. Too much of our deviations from code is verbal. I'm trying to get them to get our customers to request these things in writing.

By bmaas1

Date 02-01-2006 01:40

Remember anything verbal is meaningless, and any lawyer will tell you, as far as documentation goes, if it isn't in writing it never happened.

Brian

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 02-01-2006 12:55

I couldn't agree more. As QC Manager it's your JOB to get changes or deviations in writing ~ if you don't you are really putting YOURSELF in an awful lot of jeopardy! Man, as Principle Welding Engineer for my Company if I could get away with verbal deviations I would but it's just way too risky...

If the Customer's contract stipulates a requirement or invokes a requirement of a Code/Standard you have NO CHOICE but to uphold that requirement unless you get a written deviation. That's one of the hard parts about QA/QC is you have to enforce things even when doing so may seem stupid or place you in a position of criticism.

You make a statement: "I'm trying to get them to get our customers to request these things in writing."

If the work doesn't meet contract or specification then you cannot accept it. This is YOUR job... do it. P/S: Sorry to sound a little harsh but people come in here all the time whining about similar issues and often times, in the end, it ends up they have simply failed to do THEIR job. All of the technical advice this Forum can provide you will not help you get a spine. Please don't take this offensively, it is meant to be taken as a positive suggestion.

By rm0412 Date 02-01-2006 13:13

Believe me, their work isn't getting accepted. That's where the real conflict comes in. I'm saying that the work hasn't been completed in accordance with code and they say that the customer is satisfied. I can get the backing to get things done right, but with several projects going on it is very difficult to be reactive. That's why I'm trying to change the way they view these things. I want our program to be of the job planning, not an after thought.

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 02-01-2006 13:30

RM0412,
have you considered puting together a Q-plan. This is a plan that you as the QA/QC manager would put together that would incorporate what you and project manager or engineer or both feel is important for that job. It's different for each job. For example you might have mechanical, civil, piping and welding. Your plan would include all these disciplines and a min. inspection and testing criteria. Everyone signs off on it, and you then present it to the client as your QA/QC scope of work for that project. You then would audit it to show compliance. I have put Q-plans together for different jobs and it has been a big help to keep you focused.
Thanks
Jim

By rm0412 Date 02-01-2006 13:48

Jim,
That's a good idea! I've been trying to get them to involve me more in the planning stages. That would be a good way to do that. I think one of down falls is that we work in alot of small plants and some of the people there don't really know what the requirements of the codes are this would be a good way to communicate that.
Thanks

By swnorris (****)

Date 02-01-2006 14:48

rm0412,

I don't know what type of fabrication shop you have, but here's a link to a sample QA manual provided by Quality Management Company, who is affiliated with the AISC. Scroll down to these three links: Quality Manual Guideline for Steel Building Structures, Quality Manual, and Quality Manual with instructive comments.

http://www.qmconline.com/Code/Resources/Index.htm

I want to add that continuous education and training must be provided to the guys on the shop floor so that they fully understand what they are required to do to meet minimum code requirements and job specifications. Any efforts beyond that add unnecessary labor to the job and reduces the profit margin. By the same token, quality requirements should never be sacrificed for production. If minimum code requirements are always met, there is an acceptable level of quality there. It may not be as nice looking as another fabricator who spends a lot of extra time to make the same product look better, but either way, both will work exactly the same. Lastly, quality should be built into the product, not inspected into it. That is accomplished through educating and training the guys on the floor.

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 02-02-2006 00:16

Jon, Chet,
A big hello from "downunder".
I have to add a different perspective to this discussion. I have been hired as a CWI by at least half a dozen companies (site based roles) and it had nothing to do with wanting to improve the quality of work performed. It was purely a client/contract stipulation that they must have a CWI employed to oversee welding works.Generally it was suggested to me that I stay in the office, shuffle paperwork and pick up a quite healthy paycheck at the end of the week.You can look but don't look too hard.!
Unfortunately I do not operate that way and I would just pack my bags and leave.
Recently had an interview for a full time role and the General Manager of this company said that after looking at my CV/Resume he was quite concerned that I appeared to have quit quite a few jobs after only a short period. I explained that I took my role seriously and that if a company was only using me as a front then there was no point in me staying.
He stressed to me his committment to quality and I am happy to say I have been here three months now and I am loving it.I have the full support of upper management and any recommendation I make is acted on immediately.
It's taken a while but I have finally found a role that is not only challenging but also rewarding as well,
Regards,
Shane

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 02-02-2006 17:54

Shane,
Congratulations on your 3 months and here's to many more.

It is unfortunate but often a CWI might be hired for a figurehead position just as you described. I didn't frame my post around that angle because there have been many posts on that already along with many opinions on how to handle it. (The good thing is that most people seem to feel the same way; that it's best not to stay with a job where the managers want only a signature and no inspection.)
Instead, I was assuming that the company in question wants to handle quality correctly, but might not be sure of what to do. Everyone knows that poor quality is not good but many managers are torn between getting the product shipped on time and having a product that meets contract requirements.
Collecting numbers on the costs of poor quality and providing education on a workable and proactive QC program is a good way to show what poor quality is really costing the company. It's the easiest way to change quality control from a burden on overhead to a valuable asset.
(Good grief! I sound like a car commercial!)

Chet

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 02-02-2006 18:15

Hi Shane, good to hear you're settled for a while! This isn't still a different job from when I was downunder in October is it?? As I recall you were just in a transition phase then? I'm thinking you must be right in the hottest time of Summer now, my father-in-law said they had 40C+ in Sydney last week!! It's been a semi-pleasant winter here in Michigan so far, have only got about 14 inches of snow the whole year and also fairly warm (high 20'sF - mid 40'sF). Sure glad I didn't accept that position in Darwin though!!!!

By P3RDEGREE Date 02-03-2006 21:39

RM - I am in a similar circumstance but report directly to the company president. I am the Quality Assurance Manager for a company who put me in the position as a figurehead but instead have created frankenstein's monster.I am still a quality rookie but have already been able to contribute to positive changes in the overall quality of our product. I requested a periodic quality review with the company president, the plant manager, and our scheduling coordinator to inform them of many of my intentions, ask for any of their suggestions and point out areas where we need to improve. Real quality just makes things go alot smoother. I try to communicate to all that they should take pride in the quality of their work and would they want to spend their hard earned money on sub-standard garbage (this typically sends the message that implied specifications be met) . This goes for myself also. I am getting familiar with the exsisting system but also realize I have the POWER to improve it.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 02-04-2006 10:40

Great answer. Facing these challenges and overecoming them with positive results can be one of the most rewarding aspects of our careers. I've been very fortunate to have had a few similar circumstances and have to acknowledge its a great feeling!

By MBlaha

Date 02-19-2006 14:37

For a change, I am not whining jon, lol. I have stepped into a contruction job where the project manager, superintendents, and the QC manager on the job want everything welded to meet or even exceed code. It is really nice for a change to have all these people from management standing behind what I am trying to and it seems have accomplished. I got alot of flac from the GF and several of his foreman's at the start, but after a few words from management, they have come on board too. I kept getting the same old, It's only duct work, it's only a baghouse, all it has to do is be sealed etc, etc. They questioned my, making them grind out arc marcs, making them fill up undercut, fill in the ends of craters on stictched fillet welds, etc. My reply to them was, this was sold to a code, and it is my job to ensure that the code is met and I am not willing to jepordize my CWI to keep friends I have had for 30 years. What finally got to them was the statement, (look guys, as a union, one of the only things we have left to sell us is our craftsmanship, they are willing to pay for it, lets give it to them. I also threatened to make welders not performing up to standards, retest. I told them, I know what you guys are capable of, why wont you give it to them. The replies were, it takes too long, they wont let us fit it up properly. All I said was take the time, no one is gonna complain if we end up with craftsmanship and quality. Well, craftsmanship started appearing, and like I heard a few years ago, quality first, quanitity will follow. Now quantity is improving almost as good as the quality.

Thanks for letting me ramble on here, but it really gave me a good feeling when the project manager said to me, I hear you have improved the quality here 90%. My reply was, why dont you go around to all the saftey meetings and tell the ones responsible they are doing a good job. All I did was convey what was expected. The welders did the rest.

Mike