Wayne,
With all due respect, how will the use of PJP in lieu of fillets take us out of conformance with project specs when the project specs state that we are responsible for the design of the connections? The fact of the matter is, when the skew stays within a certain range, the welds remain fillet welds. When it doesn't, say, for the 45 degree skewed shear bars, which are very common, a groove is created, and must then be filled using either a CJP or a PJP joint detail. We simply use the BTC-P4-GF, which is for a PJP weld. To stretch the use of this joint designation a little further, as we often do on this and other prequalified joints by using the notes, Note 10 (2004 D1.1, but changed to Note j in 2006 D1.1) can be used along with this joint designation, and this note states that the orientation of the two members in the joint may vary from 45 degrees to 90 degrees for T joints.
The groove welds would not be a problem either because our (and probably most) structural welders are qualified to weld them.
To answer your question in your initial post "All this comes down to whats not covered in the above four items. That will be the the 20* between 80* and 100* (acute/obtuse), which , according to the definitions in annex K, would be a T joint and not (my opinion) considered as prequalified.I'm guessing that this is due to the available effective weld area, or, lack there of. Does this make any sense to anyone else?:
The 20 degrees between the 80 and 100 degrees that's not covered is covered in 2.2.5.2, Fillet Welds and Welds in Skewed T joints. Item (1) indicates that surfaces meeting at an angle between 80 and 100 degrees are in fact fillet welds, and the shop drawings must show the fillet weld sizes. 5.22.1 indicates that if separation in the joint exceeds 1/16", the leg of the fillet weld is to be increased by the amount of the root opening, but the root opening cannot exceed 3/16". I don't think a 10 degree swing either way would open up beyond 1/16" in the 80 to 100 degree range. But; whether or not it was poor fitup that caused a 10 degree variance, its still a prequalified fillet as long as it is between 80 and 100 degrees. Using Note 10 in conjunction with the BTC-P4-GF joint designation, a skewed T joint will still be prequalified if the shear bar is set between 45 and 90 degrees.
This is a very interesting discussion! John, Bill, Wayne, what do you think?
Scott, I'm not sure just what your shop situation is, but it sounds like for the most part your detailing the connections. That fine. Not every shop out there has the privilage of control over details. Not every shop has all their welders qualified for groove welds, and not every ironworker has 3/4G certs. As Special Inspector, I am required by the IBC-03, section 1704.3.2, to verify compliance with the approved contract documents, the "proper application of joint details at each location". If I walk into your shop and your using partial pen welds where fillets are called out, without EOR approval you're in non compliance, period.
But, that's beside the point. D1.1 Section 2.2.5.2 has nothing to do with the qualification or prequalification of welds, and note j is in reference to T joint GROOVE welds, not fillets. It's the apples and oranges thing.
I just don't see where what your telling me defines prequalified T joint fillets. I feel that 4.11.2 actually makes it clear (now). That word "SHALL" there in the first sentence. Wayne
your right about the interesting part-
WELL EXCUSE US THEN for being interesting!!!
GO WATCH THE STEELERS DVD IF YOU WANT EXCITEMENT!!!
Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Vonash,
To me, the topic is not boring. I support the discussion. Its interesting!!!
I also enjoy reading some of your feedback…If you will create a comic book about inspection / construction and distribute it to those guys working in offshore or middle east, I believe you will help to ease their homesickness…this is not to offend you but it’s a compliment.
Ariel D C
Vonash,
On behalf of ssbn727, Ariel D C, Bill, Wayne, and John, I’m sorry that we bore you so much. If you’re that easily bored, why don’t you try jumping up and down on your bed, making sure that you jump high enough to repeatedly bang your head on the ceiling until you knock yourself unconscious? Then, when you wake up, if you’re still bored, you could start an argument between the four walls and leave the ceiling to settle it. While the ceiling is settling the argument, you could go outside in your underwear and point a hairdryer at passing cars to see if they slow down. Make sure to use the high heat setting, because the lower heat settings are ineffective. If you’re still bored after that, you could stand on the curb and smash some of those little packets of catsup. Remember to take your shoes off because you wouldn't want to mess them up. When you go back in the house, turn your tv upside down and stand on your head to watch it. These are just a few of the things I do to remedy boredom, but, my personal favorite when I’m bored is to get out my collection of 33 1/3 rpm records and play them at 78 rpm speed. It’s necessary due to my superior thought processing capabilities. I’m sure that you have the same superiority complex.
Hey Scott,
:>))))) Now, that's some of the best reading I've done in months....got any more ?......Denny
If you can't find the remote, then you have to drag your dead ass off the couch and turn the channel by hand!
I'm thinking I should qualify my fillet welded T-joint WPSs per 4.11 & 4.8.4. I haven't taken the time to read all of the posts and replies in this thread(yet). I think the code is pretty clear that the clips welded on for standard framing or welded in the webs are prequalified (lap joints), but to weld the stiffeners in, requires a T-joint and I'm thinking you need to qualify(document and prove) that your max single size fillet and your multi-pass fillets are do-able(hense the macros in 4.84) per your WPS.
John Wright
Here's a good article about skewed T joints:
http://www.jflf.org/pdfs/papers/design_file102.pdf
I am definitely not bored anymore; thanks guy's, for all your kind responses.
Best regards,
Me
Well Vonash glad you aint bored no more :D