Welders qualification

Date 04-04-2006 12:56

To my memory D1.1 does not prohibit grinders as D1.5 does.

That said, are you trying to find good welders or good grinders? Who's interest are you looking out for? If I am certifying our own personnel that are already employed, I am familiar with their capabilities and we need a new certification, I am more lenient with grinder use. If he is a new hire, I am more prohibitive. When I did third party inspections, I went with what my client's preference was. I often saw welders weld, grind, weld, grind, etc. and would make note of these coupons. It is not my belief that I was certifying grinders, but wanted competent welders that did not need to grind that much. I would allow use of a grinder on an individual basis. You know we have all seen welders during test put in perfect ugly beads that did not have a chance of passing bend/RT tests and they want to grind it out and put in another ugly pass. This guy can't weld acceptably enough to be certified. That is the guy I am talking about. An occasional minor goof is one thing, weld, grind, weld, grind, etc. is something else.

As far as the cap goes, after being accepted by VT, it will need to be ground flush for bend tests anyway. For RT it may not be required.

By swnorris (****)

Date 04-04-2006 13:40

Doug,

I've had welders that wanted to grind each pass smooth (removing the ripples) on the bead face before depositing the next pass! An air chipper and/or a wire brush is all that's needed.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-04-2006 14:06

I had a welder come to us from a heavy equipment mfg, and he asked if I needed him to grind the toes of each pass before proceeding to the next because it was a requirement at his old place of employment.

I'm sorta like these other guys, I don't really like to permit grinders while testing. If they goof up bad enough that they need a grinder, I would rather that they start over on a new coupon. Have had them trap themselves at the root and need to grind some material out to get penetration to the backing bar when trying to put the root in with two passes.
John Wright

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 04-04-2006 14:32

Wow, John, we could probably start a whole new thread on this subject! I've come to the mind set in the past few years to give my welding candidates a gringer and a cutting disc, tell them to use them as freely as if they would on the job. Dunno, I suppose its personal preference, but in my experience this has gone a little ways towards calming some of the test booth nerves!

By jarsanb (***)

Date 04-04-2006 14:34

I respectfully disagree a little. I want them to produce a test the same way they weld in production/field. And depending on the welding process, grinding may be very necessary at the toes. As far as making a repair to a test weld, ok. Everyone will produce bad welds for whatever reason at some time or another. If it happens on a test weld, they should be able to repair it or start over, their choice. Just a slightly different view I guess.

By QCCWI

Date 04-04-2006 14:51

I let the guys in my shop use a grinder during the weld test. The welder that spent as much time grinding as he did welding is the same welder I would put on a full pen weld that I need done in a hurry and right the first time. He was nervous as can be during the test but every full pen weld he does in production is just another weld on the job to him and it does not bother him at all.

My personal opinion is give the person a chance and you might be suprised. I am not one to get a first impression on someone and keep it. Anyone can lie to you for 5 minutes and give you a good first impression but go to crap in 15 minutes. I give everyone the chance to pass or fail, it is up to them to choose which one they want. Time is on my side.

By thcqci

Date 04-05-2006 23:12

I want them to have the tools that they will use during production also. That is why I say I allow the use of a grinder on an individual basis. Although, as I said above, a newer guy I am less lenient with the use. I want him to feel the importance of depositing sound weld beads, not using the grinder as his crutch. And it depends on what the guy wants to grind out. A simple, minor goof or two, grind it out. Grinding each bead smooth (as Scott said; seen that too); better not be doing that during production so, no, not allowing that. Consistent use of grinder to fix multiple, ugly passes, NOT! Is that what I want my (or in the past, my client's candidate) welder to be doing daily? Is he not capable of depositing consistently acceptable beads? Then he needs more practice or training and needs to be tested and certified later.

In my view, the certification test is to simulate the general conditions the welder will be doing and see if he is capable of routinely depositing sound welds in a production setting with few discontinuities or repairs. It does not mean he will be perfect. It does not mean he will not have some limitations later. But simply to test and document his competence and capability. D1.5, being more restrictive, further culls the less capable welders by forcing them to deposit beads without making those major mistakes during the test. But then again, generally speaking, you are looking for a higher quality level out of a bridge welder than you are out a structural welder.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-06-2006 10:50

I may have been too brief in my statement about the use of the grinders during testing. I understand as Jon does about the test booth jitters and try to get everything out on the table in regards as to what is expected out of them during this test. I explain what we are looking for and ask them questions about whether they understand the WPS and the equipment, "before they start", to make sure we are on the same page and give them a whole barrel of scrap to get set up and comfortable. If I feel they are comfortable, they can get get started and I won't hover over them for every pass, but I do explain that I will be watching them place the root and possibly several passes beyond, then come back and check on them to see how they are progressing.
I understand what Doug is saying about not wanting a welder to reply on a grinder too heavily, because we don't need a welder to place a pass, then grind most of it back out each time, we would never get a joint completed, and is an indicator that the welder just needs some more arc time before putting them into production.
John Wright

By BF

Date 04-06-2006 18:02

I'm kind of like John, I explain all the requirements up front and give them some scrap to play with until they feel comfortable. Then I tell them I am not going to bird dog them on every pass, just watch the root and I have other things to do so I will keep checking back to see how they are doing. I also tell them if they have any kind of problem such as run out of gas or nozzle drag or wire problems or whatever, don't go any further jsut wait until I come around and we will decide what to do. Then I might offer the grinder, but the use of the grinder is my choice not theirs. I want to know they have the skill to do a good weld with as little grinding as possible. That way I know they don't over use the grinder because they want/need to pass the test. And we all know there are times when you need to grind for whatever reason, so I just control it on the test. It seems to work for me.

By MBlaha

Date 04-07-2006 01:49

For the tests I am giving, I have a pile of scrap to let them get the machine set on. I tell them to take their time and make sure they are comfortable with how the machine is running, and how they want to set if for passes after the root. I have let them play with the machine for as long as a hour as we are testing off of an old miller 8 pack that the dial tells them they are at 125 amps and I could run 3/16" or 1/4" carbon arc rod gouging with. I set the machine at the lowest setting and tell them they have to adjust the amps by how the machine runs, not what the dial tells them. When they tell me they are comfortable, I give them their plates, and explain what gap they are allowed, max width, how wide they can weave, 3 times the diameter of the rod (we are using 1/8" ER7018H4R) and max reinforcement. I have a a 4 inch grinder, slag hammer, hand brush, and a brush for the grinder. I tell them how I want it tacked, and how long the tacks are allowed to be. I also inform them where the coupons will be cut from. They are told you have a grinder to clean up your starts and stops. I also tell them this is a welding test, not a grinding test. Use it, don't abuse it, and you won't lose it. If I hear too much grinding going on, I will take it away and give them a rusty old file. I also tell them they have 4 hours from the time they tack the plate in postion to complete the welding portion. We are testing on plate and tubes. The thing that is bad, is of the last 20 welders I have tested, I have only been able to keep 7. This is a make or break test. I also tell them if they start having problems, to come and get me so it does not snowball on them. I am here to help you, not break you out.
We are hurting for good welders out of our local at this time. It is hard to tell a person that has driven from Louisiana or Texas or sometimes further, that the plate is cosmetically unaceptable, but that is part of the job. You would not believe some of the excuses given. Still, I have to go by what is acceptable and is not. For a while, I was lienient on visual, but then I had to deal with very poor welding on the job, so I had to get toughskinned.

Just how it is

Mike

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-07-2006 11:28

"If I hear too much grinding going on, I will take it away and give them a rusty old file."-quote- Mike

LOL, I'll have to remember that one:)

"For a while, I was lienient on visual, but then I had to deal with very poor welding on the job, so I had to get toughskinned."-quote-Mike

I understand completely, I've grown "toughskinned" also.

John Wright