ASNT LEVEL II VS. LEVEL III

Date 04-13-2006 15:17

The level II can perform the tests and accept or reject the indications in accordance with a written procedure.

The level III can perform and accept the results of a tests, also the level III is the one qualified to write and accept the written procedures. The level three is the one who certifies the level I's and II's.

In a nutshell, the level III is management, and over the level II's for that company.

It seems the company you are dealing with just wants reassurance that the RT's are acceptable. The level II will RT them, evaluate the results and then forward it to their boss (level III) for final acceptance and certification.

By Bill M

Date 04-13-2006 15:24

Also if your requirements are exactly as you wrote the above...
Make sure the Level III you use is an "ASNT certified Level III".

By NDTIII

Date 04-13-2006 17:32

Alot of companies insist on Level III's performing final acceptance of radiographs. It's common. But if your specs say ASNT Level III, then you must use an ASNT RT Level III.

By BamaDave (**)

Date 04-14-2006 01:32

Wow, I haven’t heard where a “lot” of companies call out the requirement for ASNT Level III’s for final acceptance of radiographs! In fact the only time this requirement was addressed was when I was working in the nuclear arena. That is news to me as typically it’s the L-IIIs primary function to detail and/or approve procedures and personnel certification, as was address above. I’m an ASNT Level III in RT and don’t normally get involved in day-to-day film interpretation and I have ton of familiarity in that particular area. My experience is based on many years of actual level II work. In fact, I have found over the years that many level III’s have very little film interpretation experience. It is my opinion and if I’m not mistaken a code requirement that a Level III should also be certified as a level II in film interpretation on order to interpret them.

David

By dlmann

Date 04-14-2006 03:38

David:
This sounds like a case of requiring some one to attest that the radiographs meet the code requirements and not necessarily interrupting the film. I’ve had that as a client requirement in a couple of paper mills and refineries that I've been in. Our QA/QC Manager (Level III) or the Operations Manager would review all the film and critique us and make us re-shoot when needed. The nuke folks probably have some even tighter requirements for getting clean film.
Regards, Donnie Mann

By NDTIII

Date 04-14-2006 06:17

Thanks for clarifying tht Donn. Dave, if you look closer I did say :final acceptance of radiographs". Basically a review of the Level II Interpretation with a signature.
So I do agree with you, Dave. As a Level III myself I try not to dispute a Level II call unless he/she is way off base or misinterprets something in the code or procedure and I have seen that happen.

By NEQA

Date 04-14-2006 14:45

Dave - good point........Who is supposed to be qualified to interpret? Several of my vendors argue with me that a Level II can legally "interpret" RT.

By thcqci

Date 04-14-2006 14:42

I will heartily "Amen" the use of an "ASNT Level III". While other than ASNT certification to Level III within your own company working on your own stuff may be satisfactory for your own company's requirements, it is my belief the intention of the codes is to use an ASNT Level III when performing inspection services for another company. Levels the playing field so all are working with the same, known standard. Otherwise, buyer beware!

On a slightly different but related subject, I know that most Level IIIs come up through the ranks and spend some significant time as Level IIs. But extended time is not required. SNT-TC-1A recommends a minimum of 1 year for college degreed personnel and more time for lesser educated individuals. While he must be capable of training and developing others, training and developing does not necessarily translate into continuing to perform Level II inspections in the real world with a high degree of competency. Further, it is quite possible that a Level III has not actually performed a real world inspection in quite awhile (I have known a couple that fall into this category). Disciplines, like ET, UT and possibly even RT depend upon familiarity with equipment and just plain maintaining a good feel for what you are doing. It is not completely like riding a bike because there are techniques and manipulations you can forget, especially if not spending an extended time with a discipline. If the Level III is going to perform the inspections, should they not need to be currently capable of passing or possibly even hold a Level II certification also? May sound stupid but shows currency of the inspector. A Level II must maintain currency or he can lose his certification. I have heard compelling arguments on both sides of the fence, so I am throwing it out here for discussion.

By BamaDave (**)

Date 04-14-2006 15:56

It is my opinion that a level III is only an administrative entity that can only perform duties specific to those detailed in the written practice in which his company has in place. I don’t have a problem with a Level III regardless of certifying through a mom and pop shop or ASNT critiquing a method or procedural problem within the area that he is certified. However, I do have a problem with them doing the actual acceptance based on interpreting the results of the test unless he is also a Level II in that method. I have seen where there would be a dispute and they would bring a level III in to mediate and after a short period of time the client would realize that he was over his head when it came the defining the results.

Example: Take a radiograph of a weld that has a little area with misalignment in the root and the welder had slightly elevated travel speed and running a little hot and undercuts the inner projected shoulder slightly and the level II just call it undercut like it is. Well then you turn the film over to the client and they have a hotshot that is reviewing the film that when through a 40 hour film interpretation course and he says that the wall isn’t broken down and wants to make a call saying its incomplete penetration. Well here is where more of a problem comes into play as if this is a big enough deal the client calls in a 3rd party Level III and he wants to look out for the interest of his client and he makes the same call as his client. Well here they go cutting the weld out and sure enough what do the find, of course it was undercut. Mean while the unit is down your boss is breathing down your neck and you only feel better after the line is sectioned and the plant looses valuable production time. The best call that the Level III could have made would have been, lets reshoot this area and this time lets reposition the source offsetting it slightly and that way we may be able to blow the wall over somewhat allowing us to see if the shoulder is actually broken down of not. That is the Level III function to adjust the procedure to achieve better results.

Fellows, that is only an example and not something that needs to be further analyzed, as I just want it to be thrown out there that these things do happen.

Things aren’t always black or white and we have to decide which side of the spectrum to slide that shade of gray towards!

Enough keyboard pounding for me! Hope you guys have a great Easter holiday and weekend.

David

By wblum

Date 04-15-2006 18:23

[deleted]

By BamaDave (**)

Date 04-15-2006 22:39

Bill, Did you want it interject your opinion in response the what cocoloco is trying to obtain clarification on?

I didn’t realize that anyone was soliciting the professional services of a level III in this thread? It looks like this posting was generated to gain information as related to reviewing film. The best I can tell from the responses give by several knowledgeable members in addition to two ASNT Level IIIs, were providing just that.

I don’t believe it was AWS intension when they sponsors this forum for individuals and/or companies the solicit business! I’m sure the NDT Consulting Group, Inc., is a reputable firm, however you may want to review the rules associated with advertisement and adjust your responses accordingly.

David

By cocoloco Date 04-17-2006 15:00

I appreciate all the information posted. In my case, I am the Engineer In Charge of the steam distribution project. I work for the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA and our specifications are written by NAVFAC (Naval Facilities Command). They require ASNT Level III certification for individuals doing acceptance of RT's. We had a RT firm with Level II SNT-TC-1A certified individuals, which confused me because I thought that when you leave the employer which certified you under SNT-TC-1A, that certification is no longer valid. Even though the individual seems to have quite a bit of experience, we had to decline the submittal and request a Level III ASNT certified individual.

By NDTIII

Date 04-18-2006 12:21

Yes, the ASNT in-house Level II and III certs expire when you leave your employer, but the ASNT certs go with you.

By BamaDave (**)

Date 04-19-2006 03:56

If you require a ASNT Level IIIs certification for individuals doing acceptance of radiographs, then the SNT-TC-1A Level II may do. You just need to verify if the company’s certifying individual is actually an ASNT level III. In many cases the Level III testing/certifying the Level IIs is actually ASNT certified. The easiest way to confirm this is to get the certifying individuals name and go to the ASNT web site and do a search on his name. Link: http://www.asnt.org/publications/rediref/cert/intro.cfm

Another way to meet this requirement this is to have a ASNT CP189 level II to review the radiographs as the certifying individual of level IIs by this standard is required to be an ASNT Level III.

I hope this isn’t to confusing. Good luck and let us know!

David

By NDTIII

Date 04-19-2006 07:51

Dave,
The man is saying that his client's specs do, infact, call for ASNT Level III's to perform acceptance of the radiographs. Not Level II's.

In my opinion, Level II's may do the initial interpretation. (at the contractor's cost), but the ASNT Level III must perform the final interpretation. Thats my opinion.

I agree that some Level III's did not come up through the ranks, but there are Level III's that did and are fully qualified to review film.

Yes, the certifying Level III in-house must be an ASNT Level III, in this instance, but so do all the Level III's performing the review. An ASNT Level III cert is not a stand alone certification, unless you have a practical examination to go with it.

The employer should still give the Level III a practical exam, unless the Level III already has one from a recognized agency, such as AWS or CSWIP, PCN or CGSB or whereever.

The bottom line is that cocoloco's client wants an ASNT Level III to review the films and that's it.

It is not uncommon. It's all about credibility and liability. BTW I am not looking for a job. I already have one. But thanks for the plug.

By BamaDave (**)

Date 04-19-2006 10:33

I disagree, as it’s not the level IIIs job to interpretate radiographs. But, I’m looking at the way in which cocoloco said what is required. I have done work for the government in the past and back then I had to be CP-189 certified, thus by an ASNT level III. Re-look at the statement that cocoloco made, “They require ASNT Level III certification for individuals doing acceptance of RT's.” Could they mean the certification process of the level II reviewing the film? Perhaps I’m reading this incorrectly.

Regardless, cocoloco if you need a Level III to review the film and don’t have one, I would contact you local ASNT chapter and discuss this with the section officers and see if they can provide referrals. They know the guys in your surrounding area and can steer you in the right direction.

Good luck and keep us informed.

David

By tito

Date 04-19-2006 13:17

I believe that by this post, as far as the level III is concerned, the original interpretation is that basically the level II's shall be certified by an ASNT level III.

I think cocoloco may be confused, as I am because I'm not quite sure how he is interpreting the requirements, with the statement that under SNT-TC-1A - once the level II leaves the company his certs are no longer valid.

It seems to me that cocolocos company had an RT company perform RT, had a level II shoot & interpret film, and then left the company. I think that cocoloco thinks that since the level II quit or whatever after perfoming the work, that the interpretation and acceptance of the film is no longer valid.

If a person works for a company, is certified level II for any method, and performs the work and accepts or rejects the results, these results are final and valid. It does not matter when he quits as long as he is employed by the certifying company and certified level II at the time of the inspection.

As I stated above, I think cocoloco thinks the inspection results are no longer valid because the person no longer works for that NDT company. And he thinks that since the level III is ASNT certified that the results should be always certified by the level III just in case any level II quits.

This is just my 2 cents.

By NDTIII

Date 04-19-2006 14:24

cocoloco. Why don't you email me directly. There seems to be too much unnecessary confucion here.

By cocoloco Date 04-19-2006 14:30

My main issue was that the NDT firm that the main contractor submitted to us provided a cover sheet saying that they are certified to SNT-TC-1A Level I and II and has AWS QC-1 certified welding inspectors. As I understood the certification issue, if there is no Level III individual in this firm and certification per SNT-TC-1A is revoked when the individual leaves the employer that certified him as a Level II, then basically this firm is not qualified to do the RT final acceptance. In fact, if they are not working under a Level III, are they even allowed to call themselves certified under SNT-TC-1A?? What I told the contractor was that I had no problem with this firm doing the tests, as long as a Level III ASNT certified individual was to submit the final acceptance. I am sure this firm has plenty of experience but we are bound by the NAVFAC specifications, which require a ASNT Level III to accept and certify the results of the RT's.

By hogan

Date 04-19-2006 15:36

the firm could still be qualified to perform work. ASNT-TC-1A is a recomended practice. There are no requirements that have to be followed. The requirement for an ASNT level III is called for in the job specs.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-19-2006 15:39

cocoloco,
We operate without an ASNT Level III employed on the premises at all times, but we do have one that we sub-contract out all of the Level III duties to. I work everyday as a Level II performing inspections per this Level III's procedures and if I run up on anything outside of the scope of a Level II, I have to call him and let him handle these situations.
I would think that the company you are auditing could do the same thing? I would think that they have to have a Level III's resume' on file that they contact in such situations.
John Wright

By cocoloco Date 04-19-2006 15:50

Yes, if they would have specified they had a ASNT level III individual, they would have been able to perform the work. All they did however was try and tell us that the difference between a level II and III was that a level III was an 'office person' with a college degree.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-19-2006 16:05

cocoloco,
It looks to me that this company should quit arguing an opinionated point and simply submit the documents(a resume of someone who is their ASNT Level III) that you are requesting. This individual should be able to verify if they work according to ASNT SNT-TC-1A or not. I do understand your position and it sounds as if you were trying to work with these people, yet they are not cooperating.
John Wright

By tito

Date 04-19-2006 16:14

I'd just go find another NDT company.

By NDTIII

Date 04-20-2006 04:01

On 17 Apr. you said,
"I appreciate all the information posted. In my case, I am the Engineer In Charge of the steam distribution project. I work for the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA and our specifications are written by NAVFAC (Naval Facilities Command). They require ASNT Level III certification for individuals doing acceptance of RT's. We had a RT firm with Level II SNT-TC-1A certified individuals, which confused me because I thought that when you leave the employer which certified you under SNT-TC-1A, that certification is no longer valid. Even though the individual seems to have quite a bit of experience, we had to decline the submittal and request a Level III ASNT certified individual."

I read that as your client said the people accepting the RT's had to be ASNT Level III's. Now you are saying something different. Now I see where the confusion is coming from. from you.

The NDT company doesn't have to have a Level III on staff if their written practice allows them to use an outside agency for certification. But if I were your client I would hire a 3rd party to assess them periodically.

By BamaDave (**)

Date 04-21-2006 00:06

I got caught up in the same confusion!

Plain a simple, here you go! If the Level II that you had review the film has documented certification, look at who signed it, (certified him) take that name and do the search via the link provided above and see if the certifying individual is an ASNT Level III. If he in fact is, case closed, end of story. If he was certified by anyone else, then have another level II review the film and this time make sure he is certified by an ASNT Level III.

Now another thing to consider! An individual that says they are a level II but doesn’t work specifically for a company in most cases is actual a certifiable individual and unless he has a written practice and documents his present certification via an outside agency, then he isn’t actually currently certified. He might be extremely qualified but not currently certified. I would steer clear of self-employed level IIs as there is an extensive paper trail they required additionally such as documented experience and eye exams.

I have contracted in the past the government and the contract that I worked under required my to be ASNT CP-189 certified. That statement required me to be certified by an ASNT level III without ever making any comments about the certifying individual, as it is part of the requirements of the standard. That is more than likely what should have been required on the front end and it would have greatly reduced confusion.

Cocoloco, be sure to update this thread as I’m sure many of us want to see this issue through to the end!

David

By NDTIII

Date 04-21-2006 04:06

Yes absolutely. But keep in mind, if a Level II is certified by the ASNT Central Certification Program (ACCP) then his cert goes with him from employer to employer provided the employer's written practice permits it.

By cocoloco Date 04-26-2006 21:00

We received today a submittal with a ASNT Level III certified individual. Thus, the original firm will perform the RT's and their sub-contracted Level III will submit them to us, as required by the Contract Specifications. Thank you all for the constructive input. It is appreciated.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-27-2006 01:15

cocoloco,
Thanks for the update.
John Wright