Installing different 240v plug/generator

Date 09-17-2006 18:21

Hello Molten Metal, there was a thread in which they discussed the specific identification of each of the four poles in this outlet, I believe that two of these terminals are the hot legs in the circuit and are each good for 110v seperately. When they are used in tandem they provide the 220V output, the other two terminals provide a neutral leg and a ground. The amp rating for the plug is rated to the wiring that is provided on the generator and protects it accordingly, I would not alter this as you may end up frying the wiring loom, stator wiring, or other components of the generator. One other item that you might consider when deciding whether to try to use your generator to power your welders is that unless you are fully using all of the power that the welder has to offer you will not use the full amperage that the machine will draw. Meaning that the worst that will happen when doing this, is that you will trip the circuit breaker on the generator and will have to wait for the circuit to cool down before resuming your welding task. Hope this will help some. Good luck and regards, aevald

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-17-2006 20:04

Yes that does help.I was thinking that too.I usually really only pump out between 85-110 amps with the stick . Can I just make a pigtail that goes from my 220v 3-prong to the 4-prong twist?Or will I need to change the recepticle on the generator? Thanks again.

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 09-17-2006 23:44

Hey M/M,
I think I can help you. I had to do a real modification to my generator to be able to run all my goodies. Look at the photo of my generator....click on the photo to enlarge it. Ok...from left to right the circuits are:
Double 110VAC receptacle, 220VAC Twist-Lock 3 prong receptacle, White 30A push-button breaker for the 110VAC outlets, White 30A push-button breaker for all the 220VAC outlets(3), Voltmeter, 220VAC angle-prong receptacle, 220VAC straight-prong receptacle.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/yorkiepap/DSCF0179.jpg

The only accessories receptacles on the generator when I bought it were the 110 recept., 220VAC 4 prong recept. like you have, and (2) 20Amp breakers. I did all the modifications myself because my gen. will put out 6750W and can handle (2) individual 30A circuits. The hard part I had was trying to find those damn button breakers. I finally found them on an aircraft parts website....these are the type of breakers used on almost all small aircraft...... go to: www.aircraftspruce.com. Type in the website search window: Potter-Brumfield. Click on the Potter-Brumfield highlighted word and it will list all the breakers they have. The part # of the 30A breaker is : W58XC4C12A30 and it will be at the bottom of the page. They have a toll free number and you can order them direct. They are really super with their service.

A generator with the rating you and I have is quite capable of running full tilt without a problem as long as you stay within the 30A output. My air compressor can run continously in the 110 outlet while I'm welding in the 220 outlet since neither is drawing the full 30A. The manufacturers reduce the size of the output breakers so people don't run several extensions with extensions added to them and so on. Liability.....

Hope that will help you a bit....any questions, let me know....Denny

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-18-2006 02:18

Thanks bro.There's a commercial electrical parts place by me.They might have that stuff.Did you have to use thicker gage wire?Thanks for the photo too.

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 09-18-2006 03:10

Hey M/M,
You're quite welcome. I'm sure they will have the receptacles you would need, but doubtful on the 30A breakers. Listen, the Aircraftspruce Company only charged me 4.00 each for the breakers and I think both breakers with shipping was $10-12 total. No one I called even knew what I was asking for or where to get them. I bought my 220VAC (both) receptacles at Lowes as they were the most reasonable in price. For all my connections on the back of the panel, I ran SOLID #10 wire as it can handle more than 30A for such short lengths. The generators in the class you and I have already are wired with #10 and have no problem even with a full load. Remember, a 5kw gen. with a 6.25kw surge will deliver 45-55 Amps. Your welder probably draws less than 30A, and that would be for the newer types that use inverter technology. The old copper wound transformer types could draw 50-60A on input. None of my welders draws an input current of 30A. Now, my plasma cutter will draw 30A, but it has never popped the circuit breaker running max..

The only thing else I could add is if you don't have a panel like I do, make one from a piece of 1/8" plate and attach it to your side tubes like mine. It is so much easier to set up all your configurations with a panel. BTW, I do suggest putting a voltmeter on it to monitor your voltage output and fluctuation. If you need any other suggestion, just let me know......Denny

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-18-2006 14:23

Cool.I'll try to get by there this week and see what they have.I am going to inspect my generator wiring etc. today and see exactly what I've got.

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-19-2006 17:10

Yorkiepap,I went and got the recepticle.You were right about those button-breakers.They knew what I meant but didnt carry them.I just brought my whole board to them plugs,breakers and all so they could see it.He told me it doesnt matter which side gets + or - on 220v.I didnt know that.I will go to that website later and order some breakers.See,I used to have a Lincoln ranger9. And a great machine it was.BUT,I found that most of the work I was getting it was just overkill.I ended up using it as a generator more than a welder.It worked great for hooking up my Lincoln Powermig 200 to it,or running my little Hobart 135 for doing gasless fcaw on galvanized fences etc.So I ended up selling it.But really,since this isnt my "primary" job,I really get along fine with the new inverter stuf.Its so light and portable and energy efficient.I also have a Miller ac/dc tig welder(squarewave 180) that I have at home along with the big ol' Lincoln Mig.I am acually thinking about getting the HTP MTS 160,which is a combo Mig/Tig/Stick machine.All inverter ,39lbs,160 amps cap,on 220v and runs it on 25 amps maxed out!!Cool rig for most everything I'd run into.Thanks again for the help,Gary.

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 09-19-2006 22:36

Hey Gary,
You're very welcome. Glad to hear you're making progress. Ok, a couple more items for thought and elimination of future headaches.

(1) Is your generator brushless or have brushes. Most newer are brushless and are the best. If not, keep up to date on brush wear.
(2) Yes, all 220VAC circuits are simply (2) 110VAC input legs with a neutral/ground leg. On a (3)wire system, electricians will wire, BLACK=110 HOT...WHITE=110 HOT...GREEN=NEUTRAL/GROUND. On a 4 wire setup...BLACK=110 HOT...RED=110 HOT... WHITE=NEUTRAL... GREEN=GROUND.
(3) FUEL: I really maintain my fuel parameters.
I keep the tank always full. Never close the petcock...leave it always open.

If I know the unit is going to sit idle and not run for any extended period, I add STA-BIL to the fuel. It is an additive that keeps the fuel fresh for 2 years. Only need 2 ozs. for 5 gallon.

Both my home and trailer gens. have electric start and I keep the batteries charged with a Battery Tender.

I will run both generators at least once every 2 weeks for 15 min....keeps the carbs clean.

Glad I could help you Gary....Anything else...let me know.......Denny

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-19-2006 23:06

Ok,well....now I'm a bit confused.My generator has two white wires and two black wires coming out of the brushless motor area.It doesnt have a ground wire as I believe the recepticles are grounded through the process of them simply being bolted to the frame of the unit.Although the electrical guy did say to just run a green wire off the new 220v recepticle to the frame just to be sure.So I guess my new question is,do I hook up both the white wires to one side of the 3-pole and both white wires to the other side? Or just run one off the other twist lock to the new one? Or both from that one to the new one? God...I knew I should have taken basic electronics back in school as well....arghhhh.:)

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-20-2006 00:13

One more thing,mine only has 12 gauge braided wire.I have alot of 10 gauge so I am going to just re-wire the whole thing if possible.I havent taken off the cover to the winding yet to see if I can do a complete swap from the copper to the recepticles.

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 09-20-2006 01:13

Hey Gary,
OK, let's unconfuse you. Your generator leads are probably just simply (2) BLACK= (2) HOT. These should be the (2) 110VAC leads. The (2) WHITE=(2) NEUTRAL. If you only have these (4) leads, you should be able to use a Volt/Ohmmeter and check the WHITE to see if they are also your GROUND/COMMON. Set the meter to the ohmmeter reading and do a continuity check from the WHITE leads to the generator chassis. They should both be COMMON/GROUND. If you want to try a real check, carefully separate each wire and start the generator. Take a voltmeter, set it to AC output, and check the output by placing the probes on one BLACK and one WHITE....should read 110VAC. Then just move your pos. probe to the other BLACK wire and it should also read 110VAC. Usually, the manufacturers will wire one of the BLACK wires to one side of the 220 recept, and a jumper from the same 220 lug to one of the 110 outlets. Then the other BLACK will go to the 2nd hot terminal of the 220 recept. and have a jumper to the other 110 outlet. This way, each 110 outlet will have a separate breaker so each 110 outlet can use the full output. If the 110 outlets are strapped together, you only need to run one BLACK and one WHITE to this recept.. The WHITE leads get hooked up if your WHITE are COMMON/GROUND, you run one to the NEUTRAL/GROUND terminal of the 220 recept., and the other WHITE to both 110 recept.. If you use stranded wire, I strongly suggest you solder each end of the leads to maintain a solid electrical connection and will keep the strands from fraying and breaking. If you're really confused now, just take the panel to the electrician you spoke to and get him to show you how to connect and verify if you're 110 outlets are individual or strapped. Hope I cleared this up for you Gary....let me know......Denny

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-20-2006 01:57

That helps alot.Yes they are strapped.I will get i figured out with this info you've given me.Thanks a bunch.Gary.

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-20-2006 17:24 Edited 09-20-2006 18:00

Denny...I hate to ask you somthing AGAIN.,But,here's what happened.I hooked up the 220v rerceptical,grounded it/ hooked up one white wire to one side and one black wire to the other side.Started er up and pluged in the big-mig. It turned on...cool, pulled the trigger and it fed wire....cool, then tried to weld,,,not cool. It just barley heated up the wire enough to turn it red hot.Didnt melt the base metal at all. I unpluged it and hooked it up to my wall 220v and it worked great as always.What did I do wrong now> Maybe I need to hook up both whit and both black to the poles??? The way the twist lock is hooked up from the factory,it has two white wires hooked to one of the 4 poles,and a third one takes off independantly to one side of a 110v recepticle,and from there it continues on to the next 110 recepticle.The black wires (2),go as follows. One goes to one of te 4 breakers...the other goes to the braker right above it.There are no white wires hooked up at all to the breakers.They are all black.Then,finaly,one of them comes off a breaker and goes to the twist lock pole directly oposite of the one with the whit wires.And another one comes in on the bottom pole of the twist lock caddy-corner to the other black one-they are returning from their journy fro the 4 breakers.I have my white wire from 1 side of my 3-prong 220v recp. coming from where the 3 white's are hooked up on the 220 twist,and right across from it I have my black hooked up to the other pole on my 3-pole.

By aevald

Date 09-20-2006 18:10 Edited 09-20-2006 21:20

Hello Gary, it is likely that you are what some refer to as single-phasing, essentially meaning that you are only getting one half of the 220 current, or 110V. If you have a volt meter, carefully measure the voltage of the four wires that would normally be connected to the twist lock plug. 2 of them should read zero voltage when tested with the meter to the chassis ground on the generator and 2 of them should read 110V each when tested with the meter to chassis ground. Those same 2 wires when connected to the volt meter together should read 220V. The 2 wires that read 220V together are the ones that should be connected to the 2 poles of the 220 plug for the hot legs, the ground pole on the 220 plug should be connected to the ground wire. If you go through this process I believe that your welder will work just fine. Good luck and regards, aevald

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 09-20-2006 21:43

Hey Gary,
Aevald is correct on your wiring. You only connected one of the 110VAC sources to your 220 recept. Look at your receptacle and run one BLACK to one of the terminals, the other BLACK to the 2nd terminal, and the WHITE to the GROUND/COMMON terminal. Your machine was only getting 110VAC because you hooked a WHITE to the 2nd lug that needed the other BLACK lead. This will correct the problem. Then all you have to do to feed your 110 receptacle is run a single BLACK jumper off ONE 220 terminal that has a BLACK on it and run a WHITE from the GROUND/COMMON to the neutral connection on the 110 recept.. Remember, you have to supply each hot terminal of the 220VAC recept with 110VAC....this gives you the 220VAC you need. Hey...we'll get you there......Denny

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-20-2006 22:04

Ok,thnks. The thing thats throwing me is that the new recpticle is a 3 pole and the twist is a 4 pole.Do i put the 2 hot wires on one of the 2 power poles on the new one?Or do I put both the white ones,on the other pole,or just one of those? I know the ground is just the little circle one.The recpt. i have looks just about like a normal 110v plug,but one blade is about 25% wider than the other one.They arent slanted,or oposing or anything like that.So your saying that my welder would still turn on even though it was only recieving 110v's ? I didnt know it would. But thats a good thing if it does,cause that means i'm getting closer.

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-20-2006 22:07

OH...So you have a hot on BOTH sides of the terminal...!? Right? I had no idea.Ok,this is making more sense.So the wire i have from the ground hole looking terminal is supposed to get one of the white wires? I have it hooked up to a greenwire i made myself and have it screwed into the frame of the generator.(dead-ground).

By aevald

Date 09-20-2006 22:32 Edited 09-20-2006 22:39

Hello Gary, this is where you need to be real careful when you go to hooking up those wires. The 3 wire receptical that you are hooking up gets a 110V wire connected to each of the bladed terminals on the 50A 220V receptical, the round hole as you are calling it is the one that is connected to ground with the green wire. On most plugs the ground lug is identified by the green colored screw or lug and the two hot legs of the plug are generally identified by the silver and brass or gold colored screws or lugs. DO NOT CONNECT either of the hot legs to the ground lug on the plug, this will energize the frame of the connected machine or appliance with 110V and present a severe chance of electrocution. If you are not electrically comfortable with working on the wiring on your generator take the time to consult an electrician or someone who is, or buy an electrical wiring guide at your local hardware store and do some reading and figure out the proper way to do it to be safe. Gary, a 110V circuit has 1 leg that is hot, 1 leg that is a neutral (no voltage) and a ground prong, a 220V circuit has 1 leg that is 110V, another leg that is 110V, and a ground lug, no neutral leg (unless it is like the 4 prong twist-lock that originally came on your generator, the fourth prong being the neutral and having no voltage) I hope that wasn't completely confusing and gives you something to go on. Good luck and regards, aevald

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-20-2006 22:55

ok,so one of the two wires is a ground,and the other is a nuetral.Correct.I think i know which one is the ground,because there is a green mark from the factory on a 4 wire/4 pole plug that allows you to disconect the 4 wires from the generator and remove the panel. at this juncture,one of the white wires has a green stripe on th plug disconector.So that would go to the "round-hole thingy" right.? (reminds me of the sienfeld/frogger episode :))so the nuetral wire just goes to the other stuff and i dont connect it along with the ground wire on the round hole terminal.So I dont need to ground the round hole to the frame aT ALL,AS THE WHITE WIRE THAT IS DESIGnated as the ground wire and feeds back into the generator serves this pupose.Correct.?Whew....God I'm feeling really ignorant,but ya cant learn if your afraid to ask.

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 09-21-2006 03:51

Hey Gary,
Seems like this is really getting more confusing as we go. You keep referring to a 4 wire/4 pole plug or receptacle on your unit. Is there a 4 prong twist-lok receptacle on your unit? If there is, do you use it and have any equip. that has a 4-prong MALE plug? If you don't use it, then just eliminate it and replace it with a 3-prong FEMALE twist-lok receptacle. Ok...let's start at the beginning again and see if you can follow me and Aevald to get you where you want to go......

(1) Two BLACK WIRES are HOT= 110VAC each
(2) Two WHITE WIRES are NEUTRAL/GROUND.....They should be common as all generators have these connected to the frame so in case of a shorted circuit, the current flows to GROUND directly. OK so far??
(3) Your plug on your welder is MALE and has either straight blade prongs, or angled blade prongs, or is a 3 prong twist-lok. Which plug (MALE) is on your welder? Look at the photo of my generator. Which receptacle would your welder plug into?
(4) Just remember that the 2 BLACK wires are your 110v HOT leads and will connect to one each of the straight blades, angle blades, or curved L blade and longer curve blade on the twist-lok. The "hole" on the FEMALE recept. is always the GROUND/NEUTRAL. Look for the GREEN screw on the twist-lok to be sure of the ground slot.
(5) Take an Ohmmeter and do a continuity check on both the generator WHITE wires. They should both have continuity to GROUND on the chassis.
(6) If you are going to set up for 3 prong/blade wiring, then you will use the 2 BLACK for your HOT blade connections on your 220v FEMALE recept., and one WHITE wire can go to this FEMALE "hole" or GREEN screw, and the other WHITE wire can go to one of the 110v receptacle screws...usually the SILVER one. Then you only have to run ONE hot (BLACK) jumper lead from one of the blades on the 220v FEMALE recept. to the BRASS screw on the 110v recept.
This should have you set up, hopefully.

PLAY IT SAFE.....Before you start up the generator, have an electrician just look at the connections to be sure you're gonna be good to go. He can do a quick check to make sure there are no wrong hook-ups.

Sorry if we got you more confused, Gary. Don't feel ignorant. Wiring can get complicated. Give us an update.......Denny

Sorry 'bout the "hole" pun......

By aevald

Date 09-21-2006 05:45

Hello Gary and Denny, Denny I think that you are right, as this post goes along it could certainly be construed as getting more complicated and confusing. Gary, main thing here, whatever attempt you make at wiring this thing up, double-check your finished work with a volt/ohm meter to be sure that you don't have any current going anywhere that it shouldn't be. I believe that you described the 3-prong plug that you want to wire to your generator as being a 50A type that is used on the majority of non-industrial type welders. This will be a plug with 2 straight prongs that are typically oriented in a vertical direction, one taking a wide blade and the other taking a smaller blade, the ground lug is a half-round hole. When you look at the back of this plug, as has been stated before, the two straight blade connections will have silver or gold colored screws to tighten down on the two wires that make up the 2 110V connections and that is where those wires should be connected. The half-round hole will most likely have a green-colored screw to indicate the ground connection, this is where the ground wire should be attached. Once you have made these connections and before you actually start the generator you should make a few continuity checks with an ohmeter or continuity tester. Insert one of the probes of the meter or continuity tester into the half-round hole and touch the other probe to the frame of the generator, when this is done you should show continuity between these two points. Next, while holding the probe to the frame as before and then inserting the other probe into one of the straight prong holes in the plug note whether you have continuity between these two points, you should not. Repeat this procedure for the other straight prong hole, the results for this test should be the same, no continuity. After you perform this test start the generator and then set your voltmeter to the volt setting, being sure to have it on a range that will read at least 220V, preferably higher. With the meter set for voltage, insert one of the probes into one of the vertical straight prong holes and touch the other probe to the frame of the generator, you should get a 110V reading. Now insert the probe into the other straight blade hole and leave the other probe touching the frame of the generator, you should get a 110V reading here as well. For your final test, insert the probes into the two vertical straight blade holes, you should have a reading of 220 volts between the two vertical blade holes when you do this test. If you follow these instructions and get the results that I have talked about here you shouldn't have any problems powering your welders. Denny also included a very important suggestion, if you have any doubts at all, have a competent electrician check over your work before you start it up. Good luck and regards, aevald

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-21-2006 17:58

S U C C E S S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WOW. Heres what ended up working.I did the hook up of the 2 black wires to opsite poles. Easy enough. Then,I put the ground wire to the pole on the 4-pole twist lock where both the white wires were going to form the windings,BUT ,this didnt work as the machine wouldnt even turn on.So,There is a pole that was the ground on the 4-pole twist that had no wire at all hooked to it from the factory.(why is that?) I put my ground from my 3-blade to that empty ground spot on the back of the twist lock and it fired up.Then I welded and it worked really good.I started out at the lowest volt setting on my Lincoln 210 and threw a bead down.Hardly any strain at all on the gen. Then I went to position #2,(there are 7 positions on this welder for volts).It welded good but had the expected power draw on the gen.Then the 3rd position, with about a 280-290 wire feed speed and it still worked great,although,it sounded like that was all the generator wanted to do comfortably.I did 3 beads,fillet,on 5/16" plate,about 6-7" long and had no problems.I still have the 20 amp breakers in it though. I usually dont have a call to go much past that many volts/wire speed anyway,so I guess it will work ok. I usually would be working with equipment in the field that draws less amperage anyway;but I wanted to see what it would do with the big stuff 1st. All I can say is thank you all so much for all the advice and help.You didnt have to take the time,but you did.We are americans,and thats what americans should do.Come together and help if they can.I wont forget your help to me.Thanks again...Gary.Journyman-backyard fabricator,:):)

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 09-21-2006 21:54

Hey Gary,
CONGRATS!!!!!!!
Listen, don't forget to get those 30A button breakers and get them installed. 20A may cause you to lose power on the higher settings on your welder and continue to pop out when you weld. All generators will surge with higher RPM as you draw more current. Just normal operation.

I'm really glad to hear you didn't hurt your generator by having a wrong connection because of confusion. Great helping you out Gary....Later bro'...........Denny

By Molten Metal (**)

Date 09-22-2006 03:25

Denny,Ordered the 30 amp breakers today.Will install them as soon as I get them.Thanks again.Gary.

By 357max

Date 09-21-2006 13:58

Check the page from the Trailblazer OM on 120-240 vac connections