rod heater for 5P?

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 09-11-2007 19:59 Edited 09-11-2007 20:01

It is WRONG to store 5p in a heated oven.

It is WRONG to attempt to dry wet 5p in a heated oven

Here is information from Lincoln Electric on how they say you should store and care for non-low hydrogen stick electrodes like 5p

Check Page 47
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/c210.pdf

Yes prolonged exposure to elevated temps is bad for the 5p style electrodes... It will remove Hy that is intended to be there and it will effect the binders and make the flux crumble

By and4rik (**)

Date 06-07-2008 23:35

I remember seeing some old 5p in my class room with white spots all over it. It welded like crap. I asked my teacher and I think he said soak it in water for a few minutes, but I don't remember any changes. Any one seen this on 5p or heard of this soaking method?

By elliott (**)

Date 06-08-2008 00:20

I got some esab 3/32 5p with white spots all over it I doesnt seem to run any differnt the other the lincoln 5p i got without it . But thats just my opinoin.
el

By CWI555

Date 09-11-2007 22:44

Lawrence tells you correctly. Whoever it is telling you that needs an education.

By makeithot (***)

Date 09-13-2007 23:53

I was recently on a couple jobs where the QA insisted that they go in an oven. I agreed to put them in but did not agree to use them as he wasn't going to change his mind. Where do these boys get their info?

By swsweld (****)

Date 09-14-2007 00:07 Edited 09-14-2007 00:09

Lawrence and Gerald are %100 right. I've tried heating them out of couriosity on 5P and 5P+ on damp and dry rods and it harms them. That was before I checked out the proper care on the web site. I would show a QC or inspector the print out of the manufacturers reccomendations and not use the baked 5Ps. Sometimes Richard, the problem is that they DON'T get the info.

By CWI555

Date 09-14-2007 01:25

I believe it comes from the emphasis placed on low hydrogen rods during training training courses.

By new tito (***)

Date 09-14-2007 17:35

Anyone see anything wrong with stroring them in an oven at 125-150 degrees?

The idiot welder that USED to work here put them in an oven and had it up to about 150 deg. Everytime I'd walk by, I'd turn it down to 125, and at that setting, it actually did not produce heat at all. So, now that he's gone, they are in an oven, but not heated.

The other situation is, a guy from one of our other shop's mentioned that they convinced the QC guy over there to let them store the 6010's in an oven - to heat to just barely warm to the touch - he said they had problems with 6010's that were left out in the shop environment and would run like crap, but after keeping them "warm", they ran better.

So, any harm in storing those "warm "temperatures. Remember, I said the one I have are in an oven but not heated, so I'm just curious as to the possible effects, if any.

By CWI555

Date 09-14-2007 20:49

As Lawrence rightly pointed out, there is a level of hydrogen that should be in the rod. 125 is low but it will eventually remove the required hydrogen.

By roadwhore (*)

Date 09-14-2007 17:00

Thanks for the info. I was pretty sure it was incorrect to keep them heated, but with some experienced people insisting on it, it makes one wonder.

Sometimes it's hard to "edjukate" poeple who don't want to change their ways. Some oldtimers don't like to be corrected by young guys like me (though I am 35 and have been welding since high school). Hell, even the younger guys, once they are shown something, be it right or wrong, think their way is best and can't be corrected.

By 803056

Date 09-14-2007 21:23

I'll add my two cents worth just so I can try out this new Dell laptop. IT IS GREAT TO TYPE AGAIN AND NOT HAVE TO RETRACE YOUR TYPING TO LOCATE ALL THE MISSING "A", "E", "W", ETC. Yipeeeeee!

E6010 and E6011 electrodes have cellulose based fluxes that utilize moisture with sodium silicate (water glass) to bind the flux covering to the core wire. High temperatures will dry the flux coating to the point where the flux will dry and crack. I've seen instances where the covering (flux) was starting to detach from the core wire. Storage conditions should be such that the temperature is above the dew point to prevent condensation forming on the electrodes, i.e., dry and clean environment.

A number of welders use an old refrigerator to store their electrodes. Some put in an electric lamp for some additional heating. Good idea, but it usually suffers poor implementation. The problem with using a refrigerator is that they are "air tight", thus any moisture present is trapped within the cabinet. The solution is rather simple. One or two holes are drilled in the cabinet to allow for some circulation of the air and to allow any excess moisture to escape. I inserted a short piece of plastic tubing to keep the holes free of the fiberglass insulation. There is no need for the tubing if the refrigerator has foam insulation. I used two-60 watt bulbs so that if one burned out, the other would most likely survive until I could replace the burned out lamp. I had one 1/2 inch hole directly below the lamps. Convection heating would circulate the air, i.e., hot air expands and rises, cooled air settles and is reheated. Another 1/2 inch hole at the top would allow some moisture laden air to escape.

That's all I have to say about that.

Best regards - Al (I like this laptop, but it must have been designed by some kid that was enthralled by red lights and he probably has them hanging from the underside of his Honda Civic. Very uncool. There are red leds on three sides and the cover. They are a royal pain in the ass. I hope there is a way to disable them. Thank God the same idiot didn't make them flash on and off, probably didn't think of it.)

By Flash Date 09-16-2007 09:50

hehehhe
10's in a hotbox I have heard it all now
6010 or as we Aussies know it a 4110 require approximately 10% moisure to run correctly
in areas where there are high temps eg. in the outback they actually dip them in water before using them because they are too dry otherwise
I am not suggesting this should be done, but it is a better maybe not safer than the practice of heating them to 100C

this is crazy, I suppose they put them next to their 7016, and contaminate them with the Hydrogen that is released when the 10's are drying. This is why theory is valuable becaue without this you can not convince others of the way things should be done
Regards
Flash
www.technoweld.com.au

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-08-2008 00:38

Hi Al!

So you got one of the supercharged "XPS" series Dell laptops???
That's one heck of "Puter" there pal!!! I've got one of those Lennovo Thinkpad R61I's that's one color... BLACK!!! However, I'm starting to think that these laptops are being monitored by the Chinese government because of all of those so-called updates!!! Maybe I should wrap some aluminum foil around it so they can't hack my "Puter" :) :) :)
Look at the schematic of the Dell, and see where the LED's are connected to see if they can be easily disconnected... Who knows, it just might work!!! ;)

Anywho, I remember back in the early eighties, an MG salesman wanted to impress us by showing us a so-called trick by dumping a few 1/8" dia. E6011 electrodes inot a bucket of water... He then asked to turn this 300 amp CC power source to maximum output, and then proceeded to make some really rough cutting with the aforementioned electrodes, and then started to attempt to gouge on the 1/2 " thick plate he was using to demonstrate which produced similar results...

Then in an attempt to razzle and dazzle us even further, he pulled out some of MG's own brand of SMAW cutting & gouging electrodes which worked much better than the E-6011's he first used... So I asked him why his rods worked better, and he responded by explaining that the chemical contents were of a proprietary nature so, he could not tell me!!! I asked him "How much??? He said "Ten bucks a pound!!!" I replied: "Get Bent!!!" "No really, if you have to ask how muhc then, you really don't need it that bad!!!" "Yeah - okay - DUDE!!!" was my response... ;)

After he left, I decided to do some of my own experimenting, and found that if the rods were to be soaked for one hour in the water, they would work almost identical to the MG fancy - dancy rods that this hot-shot salesman was trying to push on us at this welding distributor I was working with many moons ago...

Six months later, this Hot - Shot salesman decides to visit hte area again so, he stops by our distributor again to see if we were pushing those fancy - dancy rods for his company... When he asked me how it was going, I responded by asking him a question: "How much do you guys charge for the water preparation done to these rods??" because by then, I had achieved identical results with regular Lincoln E-6011 electrodes as his company's proprietary brand of cutting & gouging electrodes, and wanted to see his response to my question.... The conversation quickly turned towards another one of his company's brand of electrodes which would weld stainless to mild steel...:) :) :)

That's when I knew this guy was nothing more than a "Snake Oil salesman" and could not be trusted at all!!!;) Btw, your explanation really hits the nail right on the head with respect to the sodium silicate!!! So thanks for sharing the design of your refrigerator system... I've seen a few of them used in similar setups in a variety of locations in the tri-state area of NYC yet, I don't remember if they were setup like how you describe your system which makes a whole bunch of sense!!! :) :) :)

Yeppers!!! A dry, and heated 5P rod will not work so well in a pinch when it comes to welding with them but, you can dunk them in water for about an hour and a half, and Voila!!!
Gouging rods without the air!!!

That is, so long as you crank up a 300 amp machine to it's maximum output because if you've got a 200 amp machine - you're Manure out of luck!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry

By 803056

Date 06-08-2008 02:24

Hello Henry;

Its good to hear from you. How are you feeling?

The Dell is running very nice, but it is slower than I thought it would be. Even with the higher processor speed and plenty of memory it is still slower than I thought it would be considering the processor is more than twice the speed of the old one. I don't regret putting the Apple on the shelf as a book end. That's all it is good for. Apple should be sued for false advertising.

The E60XX electrodes have improved penetration, i.e., aggressive digging arc, when dipped in water because of the increased hydrogen (from the moisture).

Some companies will add hydrogen to argon to improve the penetration when welding with GTAW on nickel or some austenitic stainless steels. Same idea as the "wet" E60XX electrodes.

I'm working for a client in Georgia as I type. I had to train and qualify their welders. They improved their techniques considerably and are doing well with their tests. The most frequent comment I heard was, "You're a hard man Mr. Al." The reason for the comment is every time they fail a sample they have to produce two acceptable consecutive samples before I let them test again. So, if one of the practice samples fail, they start from ground zero once again.

This project is expanding to include training the QC staff, the design engineers, and developing a system for outsourcing to ensure what they purchase meets their customer's requirements.

I hope you are doing well.

As for the Chinese computer, they bought out IBM's laptop product line. Unfortunately I don't trust anything that says "Made in China", but it's getting more difficult to buy anything that hasn't been whored out to the Chinese. Gee, I wonder why the economy in the States has gone to shix.

I have no sympathy for the scum companies that get caught with their pants down because they outsourced the work to the Chinese or Indian suppliers. I hate receiving notices of the plant auctions. I just wish it were the homes of the executives that making the decisions to go offshore going on the auction block. That's coming in the near future if there is any justice in this world. Even the phone company has outsourced their sales departments to India. Every few months I get a call from someone in India trying to sell me a Yellow Page advertisement. "Sorry, I don't speak Indian and you sure as hell can't speak English!" CLICK!

Gotta run. Ranted and raved long enough.

Best regards - Al

By and4rik (**)

Date 06-15-2008 20:24

"Gouging rods without the air!!! "
will this water dipping method have any effect on normal welding? Also, how does this realate to any applicable codes?

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-15-2008 20:29

FC2002!!!

Meaning non - coded work!!! Who said anything about welding??? Btw, after one gouges, one must clean the metal via grinding - Capeche???

It's mostly nothing more than an old welding sales trick. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By and4rik (**)

Date 06-16-2008 03:56

Could there beany problem with the hydrogen working it way into the base metal and possibly cracking when re-welded?

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-16-2008 04:38

If you had to use wet SMAW electrodes in a pinch to make an arc cut. It would be necessary to grind away the slag and dross in order to make a good quality weld.. The grinding would likely remove any Hy possibilities.