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Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 06-24-2008 03:58
    I don't think there has ever been a defense for shooting someone in the back, but then when someone has a shotgun pointed at Your ass You are pretty stupid if You don't do as You are told.

    When crime comes to Your usually crime free neighborhood, You do tend to take it personally. If this guy did nothing [other than call 911] He would be the a__hole for "doing nothing" while His neighbor was being robbed.

     Perhaps the cops would have gotten there soon enough to catch the crooks when they were leaving, if not, maybee thay would have come back to that neighborhood the next day for another load.

     As much as I agree that He shouldn't have shot them in the back, I do feel that if more robbers were shot and or killed, enough so that it was a likelyhood not an unusual occurance, that crime would be drasticly reduced.

     When We were kids playing "cops & robbers" My cousin had a line " I will say Halt 3 times, then I will shoot. HaltHaltHaltBang"
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-24-2008 13:45
"HaltHaltHaltBang"

I love it!!  :-)
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 06-22-2008 10:16
"The law will expect you to "control & defuse" the situation WITHOUT excessive force...BECAUSE YOU ARE TRAINED TO DEFEND YOURSELF!!!! "

For those of you who live in concealed carry states that require qualification at the range.
The same mentality expressed by S.W.s post. is inherent in the accuracy you display during that qualification. I've shot pistol since I was 12,
and am better than average on accuracy, but if you show that on your qualification target, it can and will be used against you when it comes
court time in a self defense case. Don't let your pride get in the way, make damn sure you have enough to pass the qual but not enough to
make you look like a marksmen. My instructor for that years ago when I first got the concealed carry, passed this information on to me and allowed
me to shoot another target after my "education". Annie oaklees go to jail, as they are expected to be able to refrain from deadly force, and be
able to hit their target in a non lethal location. It's hard to argue why you had to plant someone when you show groups under 2" at 25 yards with
a pistol. The jurors have just seen to many movies of the bad guy being disarmed by a well placed shot.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 06-23-2008 00:04 Edited 06-23-2008 00:47
Yep, you summed it up with a VERY good point. I was actually referring to hand to hand self defense, especially involving edged weapons, but it applies just as well to a firearm. My MA instructor made it clear to us in training to divulge, little if any information about how much you actually know about defending yourself. CWI, you are very correct in saying that it WILL be used against you in court. It absolutely will. Yes, the jurors as well as law enforcement often view Martial Artists & skilled Marksmen as "Steven Segal" types that can flawlessly execute perfect disarms against an edged weapon & or firearm attack just like on TV, but in a real time split second, life threatening condition. In reality, a disarm & or "accuracy shot" IS THE LAST STEP you would want to attempt to take in the course of defending against an attack, being that you are in deadly close proximity of said weapon,(or in a firearm situation, risking missing the shot all together) and your chances of being cut or shot are extremely high. Any GOOD, SENSIBLE & REASONABLE instructor will tell you getting close to an attacker with an edged weapon or a firearm is very dangerous, REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD YOU MAY THINK YOU ARE. Lots of highly skilled DEAD people out there to prove that!

A person with an edged weapon can attack another, with say, a holstered firearm & fatally cut or stab him in a distance of 7 yards in less than a couple seconds. We did drills similar to this, with law enforcement officers wearing an Arnis suit, gloves & full helmet (protective body covering) to prove this point. The chances of doing little more than surviving by any means necessary are slim at best. And that's being the attacker is unskilled with an edged weapon. Most people, including myself, could barely un-holster the handgun, let alone get a "shot" off due to the sheer intensity & speed of an attacker rushing at you with a knife or other edged weapon.  I trained series of drills with live edged weapons & got cut A LOT. This was in half time too. Real time & intensity would have resulted in serious injury & or death. You aren't thinking about some slick disarm to use on your attacker, you're concerned with defending your life & stopping the attack. Period. And, as CWI expanded on it, if you divulge that you are a highly trained Martial Artist, or Marksman in this case, you will be "expected" by a jury & or law enforcement to have used some "expert disarm" or shooting technique to "diffuse & control" the situation, without the use of serious or deadly force. True, very true. Very nice addition. S.W.
Parent - - By rick harnish (***) Date 06-23-2008 05:19
I really just want to hit the jerk who stole my crap in the side of the head with a blunt object. I do appreciate the fact that some of  ya'll are skilled physically and mentally in the art of self defense, but I am not. I guess if I had to go before a judge explaining why I attacked some a**hole that just stole my stuff, I would simply explain how scared I was and hope for the best. " I thought for sure he would hurt me bad, your Honor!" I guess after that its up to them to decide who the criminal is.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 06-23-2008 12:19
Rick. That's the exact thing TO say! Only make sure it is clearly mentioned that you were PROTECTING YOURSELF, not so much your property.  I am not a lawyer, or legal expert, but it's all about common sense. It's hard to justify aggravated assault with intent to commit Bodily Harm against an unarmed attacker trying to steal, say your propane tank. If he drops it & tries to run & you were to seriously injure him as he attempted to escape.....The judicial system is not going to view that as a threat against your life, not at all. It's totally different, when that attacker is clearly "high" on something & you feel it could escalate into an immediate threat on your life, especially if you have your family with you. Then, as I said, it's ENTIRELY a different case. I believe in the state of Texas, there is statute law written concerning the use of deadly force to protect personal property. I don't know for sure on that though. In Michigan, there is NO legal statute to justify the use of deadly force to protect one's property. At least as far as I know. An individual doing so here, would end up in prison for killing, or seriously injuring someone attempting to do so. Not to mention the certainty of the civil suit by the relatives of or the attacker himself to follow.

When I trained & carried a concealed weapon, I was taught in my locality, which was then Nevada, never to use any kind of excessive force, if any at all to defend from, or obstruct theft or robbery, unless you were absolutely sure that your life was immediately threatened by said robbery or burglary (there is a difference between the two!). In any self defense situation it would be only natural to be scared. My instructor was a very capable Martial Artist & I asked him about being scared. He said: "Hell, you would be insane if you weren't!"  I have been in some intense confrontations & was calm...But, scared! Fortunately, I have never been in a serious self defense situation (like a full blown "fist fight") & I hope to God I never am.

That does not mean that I cannot defend my self. But in any case, if some ignorant buffoon swaggered into that same court & said he wasn't scared, in fear for his life, but had seriously injured someone, or had killed them, the judicial system is not going to see that individual as a victim, but rather as an individual who was in perfect control & could have used MUCH less force to stop his or her attacker. That person could be charged with Manslaughter, or Murder. Like CWI had mentioned in his post, not revealing very much about your ability to defend yourself is the best policy. The judicial system will use ANYTHING you say against you. So if the situation is a serious one & is more than a scuffle, keep your mouth shut & ask for legal counsel. You don't have to say a word & I would not if it was serious & the attacker had been badly injured or killed. Best of luck to you, Rick. Really good thread. :-) S.W.
Parent - By rick harnish (***) Date 06-23-2008 14:12 Edited 06-23-2008 14:16
Thanks Steve! I really just needed to blow off steam on that particular day. Seems ridiculous once Sourdough and some others posted what they lost on ONE JOB! And your gunsafe! Lord, Im sure I would gone into some convulsive fit! :) The post has made for some interesting reading! Glad ya'll chimed in! Take care friend! oh yeah, I think you are right about that Texas statute, and common sense.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 06-19-2008 21:11
That sucks. Sounds a lot like Las Vegas. People would steal anything that wasn't bolted to your truck while you were taking a leak at a gas station. I had some guys I worked with break into my apartment, in the early evening & stayed there all night grinding on my gun safe. (Yes, they ground two 20" grooves thru 3/8 plate) They didn't get in, but I bet a dozen people heard the noise, saw the truck being loaded up & did nothing. That pissed me off more than anything. Sorry to hear about your stuff. Maybe it'll show up on a job one day. S.W.
Parent - - By rick harnish (***) Date 06-19-2008 21:45
Man...F***ing thieves.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 06-19-2008 22:52
Yep. You got that right. It just sucks that most people just turn the other way when that stuff happens. Too bad. Too bad. Good post, Rick. S.W.
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 06-21-2008 05:25
This is what needs to be done, when they get caught stealing the 1st time cut off 1 finger, the 2nd time cut off one hand, he will either learn to quit or have to quit not by choice, second public excecutions hang'em high at noon in the middle of town, also we should be able to shoot them because when somebody steals from you they stole part of your life, no matter what it is, if it was a ball point pen, or more, you had to give up part of your life to work to make money to pay for it, so even if he didn't take your life, he took part of it, and by me that is grounds to be shot
Parent - - By rick harnish (***) Date 06-21-2008 06:07
Crazy as*ed bloodthirsty Texan. All they really need is love!! LOL..still LOL. LMFAO!!!
Parent - By texwelder (***) Date 06-21-2008 12:51
I'll let you give'em all the love they need, You can polish a turd and polish it, but its still a turd. Thieves are turds
Parent - - By snuffman (***) Date 06-21-2008 14:02
Ill show them love with a little lead, or a sharp blade. I agree with 100% TEXWELDER there wasnt as many prisons and they didnt have to worry about overcrowding during those days.
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 06-22-2008 20:50
If a man is caught stealing hang him/her, in public no more problems no questions, no trial by jury, which is composed of members who are what I call tube fed, the T.V. The media makes some people believe that the reason these people steal is because they had a bad childhood, or need help, I call BS on that one because no matter what you know right from wrong. If I can teach a dog, with little effort, to behave, then these people know its wrong, and need to be dealt with. We let more and more criminals get away with wrong doings day by day, and then what happens the next turd thinks its ok to do it too. It needs to stop somewhere, I say a short rope and tall tree !!!!!!!!!

"Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses"
Parent - - By ibeweldingsum (***) Date 06-27-2008 03:41
well last year right before x-mas a thief stole my grinders,torches&leads pawned them that same morning just down the street from my motel and gave the motel as his address along with a copy of his ID smart feller huh? still havent got my stuff from prosicutor yet!!!!!
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 06-27-2008 03:53
Pawn shops are a joke, they should know that a dude that looks like a crack-head ain't a welder, so if he/she is saleing welding tools they are stolen, tell the thieven sumbi*** to return it and then hang-um !!!!!!!
Parent - - By rick harnish (***) Date 06-28-2008 07:10
Ya'll check it out! I cut a guy off by accident today.He honked, gave way, and I took the spot. I was commited and it was totally my fault! Got the customary bird, then more. They were both(man and woman )  leaning out the car giving me the bird with everything they had! I was in the wrong so i IGNORED this for a good 10 seconds.Then I chose to show my displeasure for their lack of hospitality by vigourously returning the bird! Most harmless, you may think! He fired a shot over my hood!FREAKING SHOT HIS GUN OVER MY TRUCK!!!!!!! I was displeased. Like some sort of dipsh*t, I gave chase like James Bond! Had a friend in a different truck witness it, then we boxed him in. We pushed him to the sideroad where I showed him he was not the only one armed. HE HAD HIS BABIES IN THE CAR! He had just shot at me! he was on his cellphone asking me to meet his  buddies. My buddy and I chose a location that was to our advantage, and luckily never saw him or his partners. Wow, tell ya'll what, that was the most intense crap that happened all day! Looking forward to daylight so I can see if my truck was hit! Freaking WOW!!!!!!
If the shooter happens to be reading this......WTF?? WTHF?? Calm the cornbread f**k down!!! I realize your babies were at stake. Something to think about when you are shooting a gun in someones general direction while driving like a stuntman! WTF?
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 06-29-2008 04:45
Now THAT is Road Rage, with a little stupidity mixed in. Potentially starting a gunfight, demolition derby or whatever might follow with kids in the car??? INSANE!!!
Parent - - By rick harnish (***) Date 06-29-2008 06:07
I am ashamed I was involved. I showed how stupid I can be last nite. Ive got people who expect me me to come home! STUPID! I was raised  better.
Parent - By Jenn (***) Date 06-29-2008 23:14
rick,

Flipping the bird does not at all warrant some moron SHOOTING AT YOU. I harmlessly flip people off all the time when they nearly run me off the road all the time in traffic. I do not however expect them to SHOOT BACK at me!! They should be ashamed of themselves for putting their kid's lives in danger. You should have called the cops on them though once you had them blocked in. The next guy is going to shoot that guy in the head right with his kids in the car, maybe some cuffs and a ticket will get that gun out of his hands before that happens.

I will say when I lived in NYC for a year, I did NOT flip anyone the bird in traffic though. I was too scared to do it up there!! :) Now I might expect to get shot at up there for that, lol! Not in VA though!

just my 2 cents

Jenn
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 06-30-2008 04:53
   And another unmentioned point, that bullet didn't just fall to the ground immediatly after passing Your truck, IT WENT SOMEWHERE. This is how the stories You see on the news happen where somebody is at home and a bullet goes through the wall & hits them.

   "Police fired over the heads of rioters, killing 20 people on the second floor" George Carlin
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-29-2008 23:53
Rick,
I can honestly say this man would be in jail right now, or shot dead in front of his family. It is sad to say that this persons family would have probably been witness to the incarceration for sure, or justifyable shooting of thier pack leader.

You went so far as to chase this person down and "box" them in, and let them leave the scene. MISTAKE!!

Once you have them cornered, give NO ground. Hold the weapon on them from a safe position until the law arrives, and if they try ANYTHING, you have a justifyable shooting. BUT you better be ready to take this persons life from them in front of thier children just like they were willing to take your life from you in front of thier children.

It is sad to say that they would learn a BIG lesson from the end results. And that lesson would be RESPECT for your fellow human. This is something that is a lost cause in the world we live in.

I will treat you the same way you treat me. And I do mean the SAME way.

You should always walk away unless you are willing to take the responsibility for taking someones life. And a life is a BIG DEAL, even if it is a worthless tweaked out crack head thieving robbing, no morale having piece of sh**. It is still a LIFE. Never get involved unless you are ready and willing to go the full distance at the drop of a hat.

If you are not ready to go the distance, walk/drive away and be glad to live another day.

GIVE IT LIKE YOU GET IT!

Stay away from trouble situations my friend. 

The a**holes of this world prey on weak and scared people.

One must know thier place in the pecking order, and act as such!

Stay away from these kind of situations.

jrw159
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 06-30-2008 01:43
Dang....I gotta move to Texas! lol.  I agree 100% Dead man. Take fire, return fire. Life in eminent danger, no mistake. Here, he would be doing years in the state pen for attempted murder. 100% justifiable, no doubt. I would sure hate to shoot someone, but if they pulled a piece over such a petty situation.... If they were willing to take my life over such a petty situation.....I'm pretty big on respect for life & I would always rather walk away, even to the extreme sometimes, but this would have went the distance for me...ESPECIALLY if my wife & or kid was with me. Dead Bang. End of story. I honestly hate to say this, but I would have killed him. Period. S.W.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-30-2008 01:56
I would like to hope that I would be able to put him behind some bars that I have personally inspected!!!

If not, ..... my appoligies to the surviving family members. :-) I am not sure a smiley can truly express my condolences for the loss you will have experianced.

BTW It is not just TX it is anywhere you go in the great USA. We have the right to Life, Liberty, AND the Persuit(sp) of happeiness(sp again)

That is probably a little twisted >/,M,,/$32356$@@@&8() but what the HE** :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 06-30-2008 02:11
Yes, it's bad just about every place you go these days. Honestly, this is a town of about 300,000 & stuff like that just doesn't happen all to often around here if hardly at all. I agree too that I would rather put someone behind bars (that you inspected!) But in the heat of the moment....Like I said in the earlier posts on this thread, the couple times I had my hand on the throttle, I would have done it in a heartbeat. No doubts. I would swear that before the throne of Almighty God. Scary stuff either way.

Man, you be careful in that big city you live in...... S.W.

"Let's go crazy....Let's get nuts...." (Let's Go Crazy, Prince, Purple Rain LP)
Parent - - By johnnyh (***) Date 07-01-2008 15:18
-UPDATE-
In the houston chronicle this morning----

Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings
Panel issues no-bill after two weeks of testimony

By BRIAN ROGERS, RUTH RENDON and DALE LEZON
Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle

The shooting of two burglary suspects has sparked heated debate about property rights, gun control and other issues. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Harris County grand jury on Monday ended the rancorous seven-month debate over Pasadena resident Joe Horn's decision to gun down two illegal immigrant burglars in his front yard, concluding the act was a justifiable use of deadly force and not murder.

The grand jury heard two weeks of testimony from witnesses, including Horn. They likely also heard his breathless 911 call, during which the increasingly frustrated retiree ignored a dispatcher's pleas to stay inside and out of harm's way. The Nov. 14 call ended with the sound of Horn racking a shell into his 12-gauge shotgun's chamber followed by three gunshots that killed Colombians Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 38.

Each man was shot in the back. They had taken about $2,000 in the burglary.

Horn's defense hinged on his assertion that he fired out of fear for his life, making the shooting justifiable under Texas law. The law also permits the use of deadly force to protect property under some circumstances.

District Attorney Ken Magidson said he couldn't comment on the grand jury's secret proceedings.

"In Texas, a person has a right to use deadly force in certain circumstances to protect property ... and that's basically what the grand jurors had to deal with," Magidson said.

After the announcement, Horn's attorney said his 62-year-old client was no vigilante.

"Joe was not some sort of wild cowboy," Tom Lambright said. "He was trying to help police. He was put in a situation where he didn't have any choice."

Lambright said Horn was "relieved" the investigation was over and he was cleared. "When I talked to him on the telephone I could hear it in his voice -- not giddy, just relieved."

Others decried the decision as a miscarriage of justice.

Frank Ortiz, a member of the local League of United Latin American Citizens chapter, said he hopes federal authorities investigate the case further.

"That's amazing that they would no-bill him with so much evidence against him," Ortiz said. "It's amazing to me that anyone with a Hispanic surname cannot get justice. This was no more than a vigilante."

In his 911 call, Horn cited a newly enacted Texas law, the "castle doctrine," which authorizes the use of deadly force during a home invasion.

But Sen. Jeff Wentworth, who wrote the law, said it did not apply to Horn's case.

"It was not an issue in this case other than him saying incorrectly that he understood it to mean he could protect his neighbor's property," said Wentworth, R-San Antonio.

He said the castle doctrine simply didn't apply because, although the burglars were running across Horn's lawn, Horn's home wasn't under siege -- his neighbor's home was.

"It comes from the saying 'A man's home is his castle,' " Wentworth said. "But this wasn't his castle."

Lambright said even though many people, including Horn's neighbors, have called him a hero, Horn doesn't believe he is.

The attorney said Torres, who was on parole for a drug conviction, and Diego Ortiz were near the front door when Horn stepped outside.

"They were attacking," Lambright said. "It scared him to death."

Police guard neighborhood
At Horn's home, boards formed a makeshift barricade on the front walk, supporting a red "No Trespassing" sign.

Police patrolled in force -- by car, motorcycle and bicycle -- and stood guard at the subdivision's entrances. They said they were there to keep the peace in case protesters showed up.

No protesters had arrived by late Monday.

Some of Horn's neighbors on Timberline Drive greeted news that he won't face criminal charges with enthusiasm; others hung "no comment" signs on their front doors.

"I just praise God that he was not indicted, that our country is still behind our good, honest people," said Velma Cabello, 61. "He is a hero in my book."

She lives in Humble, but was house-sitting Monday a few doors down from Horn's home.

"I would love for him to be my neighbor, for someone to watch over me like that," Cabello said.

"I'm glad he's not going to jail, but it's a bad thing, killing a couple people," said John White, 51, who lives half a block away from Horn. "It's sad for everyone, him and the victims."

Horn was alone inside the home he shares with his daughter's family around 2 p.m. on Nov. 14 when he was heard glass shattering next door, spotted Ortiz and Torres crawling through a window and called 911 to report the break-in.

The operator repeatedly urged him to stay in his house, but Horn said he did not believe it would be right to let the burglars get away.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn told the operator. "You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

The operator replied: "Don't go outside."

Then the tape recorded Horn warning: "Move and you're dead!" Two quick shots can be heard on the tape, followed by a pause and then a third shot.

Detective was on scene
Pasadena police have said a detective in plainclothes had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call, and saw the two men before they crossed into Horn's front yard.

Police believe that neither Horn nor the burglars knew an officer was present.

When Horn confronted the men in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, police have said. However, the men ignored his order to freeze.

Authorities have said one man ran toward Horn but had angled away toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

Ortiz and Torres died a short distance from Horn's house.

A news release from the city of Pasadena read, in part, "We hope that the decision of the grand jury, while difficult for some to accept, will be respected as the product of a careful weighing of all the facts by an impartial panel of citizens."

Chronicle reporter Jennifer Latson contributed.

brian.rogers@chron.com

ruth.rendon@chron.com

dale.lezon@chron.com
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-01-2008 15:30
There is another twist to that story then. why was this plain clothes detective just sitting there watching it all go down?????
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-01-2008 15:34
Ditto.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-01-2008 15:41
Good question. This might have been contributing factor in the desicion not to charge him. I can not think of a better wittness to have. Haveing a plain clothed detective witness the event may have saved his butt. Without that, it could leave many doubts in peoples minds as to what really happened.

jrw159
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-03-2008 04:58
    He was probably waiting for backup. A cop alone is unlikely to put Himself into a potentially dangerous situation knowing that backup should be there shortly.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-03-2008 10:34
If this report is true, it sounds more like to me he was waiting on a new shipment of depends.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-01-2008 15:35
GOD BLESS TEXAS, USA!!!! :-) :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-02-2008 14:44
I have no pity on any thief...if they get shot breaking and entering,(or running from the scene) well tough...they took that chance when they thought up the idea of robbing somebody and acted upon it. Just a few miles from where I live a 80 year old granny shot a guy breaking into her house with a shotgun, granny was taken to jail and charged, but later let go.....I hope I don't have to take that kind of action, but somebody entering my house with force will probably find out.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-02-2008 15:11
I don't particularly care for thieves, however; I will not kill a man for stealing. Attempts on my life (or others lives), child molestation, or other crimes of that nature that can or have destroyed lives mentally or physically, yes I'll pull the trigger on someone like that. To take a life over a telivision, or a broken window.. I can't see that as being justified.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 07-02-2008 16:31
Well, people don't walk around with, "don't mess with Texas" belt bukles, socks, t-shirts and other types of clothing for no reason. lol ;-)  They should of known better, or maybe they just wern't in Texas for that long yet.  I'm just funnin and I too feel that death is a bit harsh for stealing.  Hell, in countries worse off then ours, you only get a hand lopped off for stealing.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-02-2008 17:37
Death may be a bit harsh for stealing, but if enough of the thieves get the message that they "can be" cut down, it will reduce the amount of breaking in and robbery going on.
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / hang em high
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