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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / TIG Gas Lens
- - By Zeek (**) Date 07-02-2008 18:43
In our shop, most of the welder's haven't been certified out in the industry and haven't gone to school.  Most of them were once fitters and have been trained internally to weld specific parts.  We do a lot of titanium and stainless steel.  One of the issues I've noticed is that most of them do not use off the shelf parts when it comes to gas shielding.  Rather than use a gas lens, they use some sort of screen material, cut it into several discs, and stuff them into the cup.  Then they end up cranking the argon upwards of 70-80 cfh just to get decent coverage.  Since they haven't really welded anything outside of our shop, they aren't used to using gas lenses.  I've mentioned this a couple times before because we want to use off the shelf parts that are easy to replace.  They seem apprehensive about using them, since they are pretty used to their old ways of stuffing screen material in the cup.  I'd like to explain to them that we really want a laminar flow out of the torch, and that by adding all this screen material in there and cranking the CFH up to 80, they are getting a turbulent flow.  I'd like to do a visual display of the difference by using their method and using a gas lens.  How can I set this up so they can visually see the difference in the gas flow?  Is there a special gas I would have to use that is visible?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.  
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 07-02-2008 19:11
all I can say is wow!
tell them the company will buy and pay for gas lenses
or they can continue using screen and pay for the extra 60CFH of shielding gas they are using!

I have no help on a gas used to demonstrate lamenar flow (what do they use in wind tunnels?). But if there was something this wasteful going on in our shop I would simply get the right tool (in this case gas lense) and just show them it's better or let them fool around with it. What they are doing right now is criminally wasteful and if the gas flow is that high they are just gonna be causing oxidation due to turbulance.
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-02-2008 20:47
Management can convey to the floor personnel that the current procedure is not cost effective, nor practical. This can be done with a informational literature release followed by specific training, a meeting, or both, depending on the level of familiarity the employees have with the new process. Information on the high costs the company is incurring as well as the problems that can be caused by using the present method can also be brought into the mix as well. They can then choose to embrace the much more cost & job effective method as well as the NEW company mandated procedure to use gas lenses, or Management can start the disciplinary process on the holdouts. Crack the whip once, maybe twice & everyone will get on board...Union or not.

I'm not trying to be smart, or say being a thoughtless tyrant is going to produce results, it will not. But common sense goes a long way when making a point about a current procedure that is clearly wasting the company's money as well as not producing the best possible results. I was an asst exec supervisor running a large kitchen crew for over seven years in Las Vegas. When a procedure is currently being used out of a "traditional" process, but is very wasteful & or unnecessary to the job pertaining, Management has a responsibility to the company to correct the issue. Especially being, there is a much more cost effective & efficient method available. Engineering should not have to conduct a floor demonstration to get the point across. Simply present the facts, provide the necessary training and a reasonable period of time for adjustment to the new process. Then, they can either choose to get with the program.....Or get down the road.

My thoughts, for what it's worth. S.W.
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 07-02-2008 20:59 Edited 07-02-2008 21:05
I remember seeing a demonstration involving smoke that showed the difference very clearly     <strike>, but can't find it on the web right now.</strike>
Here's Miller's demonstration image.
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=3075&d=1193364226

You -could- only stock gas-lens collet bodies, and get rid of the rest.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-02-2008 21:05
They do it with Pyrex clear gas lenses. I seen a picture of it on an ad for them on ebay. I do not know what the "smoke" actually is, or how they pump it thru the torch though. S.W.
Parent - - By chris2698 (****) Date 07-03-2008 01:10
yeah I've seen that pictures before I'm useing actually the one in the picture on the left where the gas trickles out and I HATE it I feel the gas lense works way better but can't seem to convince these jokers at my new job I gotta admit though my job isn't as stressful as it use to be but dam these guys won't seem to buy anything worth a darn there cheap. but to cut up piece of screen and shove it in the cup well if I had screen at work I'd probally do the same dam thing hell i can't even get the boss to buy some welding blinds so I have to surround my table with cardboard boxes to keep my eyes safe Yeah I feel your pain dude I do but this picture would be a good example to show them.

Chris
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 07-03-2008 16:43
some people  won't do it on principal, but if it's something that's basic safety like your boss not providing welding curtains, face shields, fume extraction etc. then I'd call OSHA on them. I called OSHA once at a place I worked at. we all know the setup quick and dirty get it out the door sort of deal, we were making resturant hoods and stainless counters, I had never worked in such an unsafe environment and my boss was more worried about the bottom dollar than safety and wouldn't pay for anything. After some close calls and unsafe practices that ended with me loosing my welding hood ( and almost head) I called it in. I never got hurt but I waas waiting for someone in that shop to get it bad.

I'm not saying the lack of a welding curtain would call for that, but a lot of bosses would rather get something done quick and cheap, and not pay enough to take care of their employees.

my current employee air conditions the factory! makes sense though, no one works fast when they are sweating balls.
Maybe I'm different but I'm too much of a safety and efficiency nut to dink around with wasteful or unsafe practices where I work.
Parent - By scrappywelds (***) Date 07-03-2008 22:27
take a look at arc-zone.com they have all ya need for titanium work
Parent - By chris2698 (****) Date 07-04-2008 01:34
well it's weird where I work like the guy is crazy safty about like peope wearing seatbelts on a forklift hell who the hell wears them?? and real anal about safety on other things but come on few flashes around isn't gonna hurt anyone right now but down the road it will be a problem. I'm thinking about in 2 months time finding a job closer to home I'm driving to far for what I make I mean it is more then the last job but the way gas is going up no way. The nice thing about this place is I'm getting a hell of alot of practice on aluminum so that is a plus but still gotta understand more about those dang blueprints and welding symbols yeah I make a spec more but dam work in a very dirty enviorment, it's werid alot of people I work with there are all up for keep a clean shop and organized but the owner doesn't seem to care about that like you said get the prodect out really fast oh and the other bad thing it is all FAMILY owned NOPE don't think I want to work for someone like this again. But seriously I shouldn't complain that much about my job the last job I should have taken them to court and cleaned house it was pretty bad. safety and harrasment wise
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-04-2008 13:21
Sounds like the average Michigan Hack Shop. Most all the smaller weld shops I have been or worked in have much the same mentality. Too bad. You just have to protect yourself & know when to walk away. S.W.
Parent - - By chris2698 (****) Date 07-04-2008 15:46 Edited 07-04-2008 15:54
oh yeah a old guy "no offense to anyone" at my last job always said to me if you ever feel unsafe pack you're stuff up and WALK he's was pretty cool guy he was always giving me advice some I took some I didn't but it was nice hearing his stories some of them could help me out later down the road. Yeah I've learned these small shops seem to be very unsafe I mean I'm sure I could be in a worse place then this one but still.

Chris
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-04-2008 16:28
The best advice he gave you was to walk if the situation is unsafe. You only live once. No need to blow it over a frigging job! S.W.
Parent - By chris2698 (****) Date 07-04-2008 16:58
yep very true no one gives a crap about you but you
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 07-04-2008 16:59
if you just go to a welding supply and buy a few (high quality) lenses in the sizes you use normally.  I would think just seeing how fine the screens are in a quality double screen lens would be all it would take to convince most guys.  Get a few acrylic and get a few ceramic in the upper end and just say "try it will buy it if you like it".   The cheap lenses with the big screens aren't really that big a deal, but the nice ones with the super fine screens are the shiznit!!!   you might end up welding with a larger cup then normal but if your doing stainless, steel alloy work or TI out of a full purge enviorment the differences can be amazing.

Best regards
Tommy
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 07-04-2008 23:42
Tommy, I believe he said they have the gas lenses, but the guys prefer to stuff screens in a straight cup. I have to say, I never heard of this before.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 07-09-2008 12:19
Yes you are right!  My reply was too hasty  I misunderstood......I have never heard of it either....but I have seen someone stuff a bit of scotchbrite pad in a cup on a portable job in a pinch....could not say who
Parent - - By chris2698 (****) Date 07-09-2008 22:41
so tommy there is different fine gas lenses that have finer screeens then others?? I did not know this but is nice to know

Chris
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 07-10-2008 22:13
Chris I have seen some with single screens with relatively big holes (cheap and all I knew really) and some with double screens that are super fine (almost wonder how the gas gets past it).   Those double screen ones do a fine job.  Fellow at work gave me some clear acrylic ones with the fine screens...they are like treasure to me.  I am no expert on lenses, until recently I did not know there were different designs like that.   There are also some very neat gas trailers out there I have seen on the net....I would like to try some of those on certain parts.

Best regards
Tommy
Parent - - By chris2698 (****) Date 07-11-2008 01:18
thanks thats nice to know that for down the road for whatever project I could be working on. Where I'm at now they don't use really any gas lenses just the little thing that the gas trickles out God I hate that absolutly no color to my welds but a guy at work was useing a gas lense he brought from home and I used it and forgot how dam nice it makes the welds look. I gotta get outta this mom and pop shop LOL

Chris
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 07-11-2008 11:37
Chris  "little thing that the gas trickles out"  huh?  you mean just a ceramic cup?      Nothing wrong with that in the right context.   SS welds that are slightly oxidized ......Grey with a satin like look....are just fine.  Its when it is a dark grey with no shine at all ...well then you need to do something about your gas coverage.  Its VERY easy to outrun your coverage with TIG and steels...sometimes you got to slow down according to what you got to work with!  Its not to hard to make yourself a "homemade" gas trailer if you can have an xtra gas bottle handy.

I have not got to talk to you in a while bud...so you took a new job eh?   Job shop work?   You know a lot of times the experience you get in a small job shop is like walking up on a rough cut diamond...it don't seem like its worth much till you spit shine it and show it to a jeweler.  I know some "techniques" these aircraft folks think are just "magic stuff"  ....its funny cause I learned most of those tricks/skills sweating my butt off on someones backhoe bucket and such. 

Gimmie a pm or a call Chris

Tommy
Parent - By jsdwelder (***) Date 07-11-2008 18:40
If you are going to wad up some foriegn material into the cup, which certainly would produce an inconsistant flow, then why bother anyway? But I would love to be their gas supplier!!!
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / TIG Gas Lens

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