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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need info on passing mig vertical up....
- - By jbweld Date 12-09-2002 00:14
I need advise on passing mig vertical up and overhead!

AWS standards test with two 3/8 beveled plates 1/4 inch apart and backing plate.


Parent - By don (**) Date 12-09-2002 15:13
I am assuming you are trying to qualify short circuit and not spray arc.
-Practice staying ahead of the molten puddle
-Remember, voltage adds weld width
IPM, adds amperage AND filler material
What size electrode and what gas are you qualifying with
.035 short circuit ramge is 15-21 volts. A good starting place is 18 v 210 ipm. slowly increase your IPM until you get the maximum buzz per second. This means the electrode is striking the maximium rate and delivering amperage and filler at the optimum rate for the voltage setting.
Visit www.weldreality.com see the section on GMAW weld info
good luck
email if you have questions
Parent - - By Michael Sherman (***) Date 12-09-2002 21:45
jbweld, may I ask why you wish to test with short circuit mig on .375" plate? As a welder I am not a big fan of short arc mig for anything other than sheet metal and non structural thin applications. As an inspector and an educator of welders I never give this particular test, I feel there are many better ways to weld .375" plate than short circuit mig. I do not wish to change your mind, I am mostly interested in your reasoning. I like to collect this type of information for my own pleasure. Thank you for your time and your much anticipated answer.

Mike Sherman
Parent - - By don (**) Date 12-10-2002 02:58
I forgot to ask that as well
Parent - - By DGXL (***) Date 12-10-2002 03:23
To Mike and Don:
Many of my clients request to use GMAW-S, even with the high-end inverters. Many "novice" welders feel if it does not make a bunch of racket and sparks, it simply is not welding correctly (in their eyes and ears). This is very frustrating and yes, production is much slower and the probability of discontinuities increases.

Then you have clients who do not own anything but equipment that is capable of nothing other than short-circuiting or globular. Their welding program is on a limited budget, a small shop, etc.

One of my former clients qualified GMAW-S procedures just because a few guys did not like to spray arc or pulse. They wasted lot's of time and $$ to do this. They are also wasting lots of time and $$ now fixing welds or cleaning them up.

I try not to ask "why" regarding this process, it does have it's uses and can be used for just about anything. I use GMAW-S myself sometimes for small projects. Please note I am not defending the process, just my comments. Afterall, it is code approved in the D1.1.
Parent - By Michael Sherman (***) Date 12-10-2002 12:33
DGXL, thank you for the response.

Mike Sherman
Parent - - By hillbilly_2121 (*) Date 12-10-2002 04:44
jbweld, I was taught to do mine with the heat set on 18.....Then go from there to get your wire feed right... That was for ALTEC IND in ST JOSEPH MO
Parent - - By jbweld Date 12-10-2002 21:04
Don, this is with .045 wire and C-10 gas (argon,carbon dioxide) I was tought to spray arc vertical up and overhead by breaking my arc after a quick triangle shape. IS THIS THE CORRECT WAY???? Which is easier to do Spray or short arc?? Which is more effective?? Sorry for all the Q's? I still have a lot to learn...THANKS

jbweld
Parent - - By jbweld Date 12-11-2002 20:16
Anybody?
Parent - By DGXL (***) Date 12-11-2002 22:12
Your not in spray arc going uphill or overhead. Not unless your pulsing. Spray arc is too fluid to 3G/4G without a modified arc.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 12-12-2002 00:05
If you are taking a plate test on carbon steel, then you are probably attempting a Welder Performance Qualification in accordance with the AWS D1.1 code.
If this is so, this Code does not recognize spray arc transfer for the vertical and overhead positions. This is because, in the spary arc mode, the puddle is too liquid to shape into an acceptable bead for these positions. Yes, you may shape a bead by repeatedly breaking the arc, which is essentially placing individual tacks in a row, but this is not Code compliant.
Therfore, you need to turn down the machine to weld vertical and overhead in the short circuiting transfer mode.
Vertical Mig has a tendency to bunch up in the center of the bead and drip downward. To avoid this, you need to dial in the settings on your paticular machine just right and use a weaving motion. Keep in mind though that you may not place any single, weaved bead over 1/2" wide. As many machines burn differently, I recommend that you find the setting you need to use on a practice piece or two before starting on the test plate. You may need to turn the machine down a little while capping off the bevel as your test plate is heated up and without the sides of the bevel to help hold the bead, it is a little harder to control. You should be testing to the parameters predetermined by a WPS (welding procedure specification). When adjusting your machine, be sure that you stay within the range of parameters detailed in the WPS.
Overhead is not much different from Vertical, maybe even a little easier to control the bead shape. The tricky thing about short circuiting overhead is dealing with all the spatter falling down your shirt collar and collecting in hot piles on your arms. This can be distracting... Additionally the spatter will quickly clog the mig gun nozzle which prevents even flow of the sheilding gas. Things to remeber are to hold your body and the nozzle at an angle rather than directly beneath the puddle so the spatter will fall elsewhere.
Hope this helps.
Tim
Parent - - By jbweld Date 12-12-2002 00:39
Thanks Tim, That info. is greatly appreciated and to all of you Thanks!

How long should I let the piece cool after each bead?
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 12-12-2002 14:37
The WPS we discussed should have a maximum interpass temperature noted.
You can check the temperture with a special thermometer or a tempature indicating crayon (temp stick).
Tim
Parent - - By jbweld Date 12-12-2002 20:55
What is the best temp after each pass for this test? I heard "wait about ten minutes between passes". But that would be inconsistant heat right?
I can get a 300 deg. crayon but would just like to know the best way to do it right the first time.

Thanks
jbweld
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 12-12-2002 22:17
300F or less.
If your plate is too hot before you start another pass you'll find that before you get halfway up, the bead becomes too liquid to control.
Letting it cool between passes is helpful, but I think you'll find that short circuiting transfer does'nt put a whole lot of heat in the plate. You probly won't need to let it cool until you are ready to cap off the bevel.
Your 300 degree crayon while be a useful indicator, just don't contaminate your weld with the crayon. Use it outside of the bevel.
Watch out because some companies put a time limit on the test.
Tim
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need info on passing mig vertical up....

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