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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / how much authority
- - By strat (**) Date 07-10-2008 01:34
a structural steel fab shop gets a job and in the bid supplying the erection is part of it, the fab shop is just doing the structural steel and hires a erection crew for the erection of the building

i am the cwi at the shop so how much authority do i have in inspectin the erection of the steel ,if any.

i know that if we get a job and the costumer supplies the erection then were out of the loop ,but ,if we are supplying the erection but it is not us doing the erection i feel that

we are responsible

anyone,
thanks,strat
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-10-2008 10:47
I think your probably right, but the contracts will have the final say in that. If there is a division of responsibility (DOR) contracturally, you may not be responsible. Suggest you run it up the flag pole in light of that before asserting a position on the matter.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By strat (**) Date 07-10-2008 11:34
Thanks Gerald,
as for the spec's nothing is mentioned in that aspect,

I,ll go to our sales and try digging a little deeper to see if any info is available

again thanks,
strat
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-10-2008 12:01
You have described many structural steel fabricators, because I would venture to guess that most would sub out the erection, rather than have a seperate crew and crane and all that liability dealing with hanging iron. We sub the deck, the joist, the misc package and the erection out, but only once or twice have I ever been called to the field to inspect behind our erector. I think the owner(of your building) or maybe his GC would include site inspection in their scope of work and hire a third party inspection group to look after all of the field welding and inspection. The few times that I was called in to inspect field welds were times where there was an extra to the contract and the erector was called back in to perform this work and the GC had released the third party inspection agency(and this was a government contract).
Parent - - By strat (**) Date 07-10-2008 12:18
Boo on me,
Spec's:FEILD QUALITY CONTROL
A. Owner will engage an independent testing and inspecting agency to perform feild inspections and tests and to prepare test reports.

MY BAD,I just plainly missed it

strat
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-10-2008 12:20
I still like your line of thinking....always looking to make sure your company is covered. ;-)
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 07-10-2008 12:19 Edited 07-11-2008 01:53
strat, if your company has the contract for supplying the steel and the erection but you have subcontracted the erection to another company you are still responsible for their work. There most likely will be another inspector contracted by the owner or general contractor for the site inspections who is responsible for field work. The steel erectors can be run off the job for poor quality, safety or performance by the GC or QC and your company will be left holding the bag. On several occasions I have been called by the steel supplier to complete jobs because the steel erectors welders were banned from welding. I received a call a 6:00AM this morning go to Myrtle Beach to complete the welding :) I can't go :(If you know the erectors and their quality and history are good you may not have to worry too much but if they are a new sub you should (or a representative of your company)frequent the job to make sure their workmanship is acceptable and they are code compliant. Your companies PM may have subbed it to the lowest bidder without knowing anything about them. While not contractually responsible for the inspection of the erectors on the site, your company is responsible for their work and you have as much authority over them as your management wants you to have. Your PM may assume this authority or may want you to assist. JMO FWIW
edit: really misspelled compliant.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 07-10-2008 13:18 Edited 07-10-2008 13:23
strat,

Since your company hired them, you might want to to review your erector's welder certs to make sure they're complete, current, and to make sure welders are qualified to perform the required field welding.  For example, there could be situations requiring overhead welding and no one has an overhead cert., or you have groove welds and no one is qualified to weld them, or the welders are only qualified in limited thickness grooves.  Erectors typically have qualifications such as these, but I've seen cases where they haven't, and we've had to bring field welders into our plant and certify them.  You'd just have to look over the erection drawings and determine what types of welded joints are on the project, and compare that with the welder certs.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-10-2008 13:41 Edited 07-10-2008 13:44
Keep in mind that you are the owners supplier, not the erector. The erector is your supplier. If the owner has an issue he is coming to you. You are ultimately responible to the owner.
Legally speaking in a strict sense the owner shouldn't even be communicating with the erector without due notification to your company.
I would also say that you have absolute right and authority to inspect, evaluate, and require, whatever you deem necessary of your subcontractors as long as it has been stipulated in your contract documents with them.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-10-2008 14:46
I agree with JS55.

If your employer hires the erector, your employer is responsible for their work. Should the subcontractor (the erector) drop the ball, the general contractor will look to your employer to complete the job, i.e., hire a different erector if necessary. Should your employer fail to hire another erector or if the first erector was "a nightmare", both the subcontractor (the erector) and your employer (the fabricator) could be discharged as not fulfilling the requirement of the contract.

The contractor (your employer) is responsible for quality control, both in the shop and in the field (because they hired the erector). The owner is responsible for quality assurance, i.e., to ensure your company did the required work, met the code requirements, performed the required inspections, etc.

Many states have adopted building codes that invoke requirements for special inspections. Structural steel framing usually requires special inspections that are performed by inspectors that are qualified (and certified in some cases) to perform special inspections as described by the building code. The special inspections can include shop inspections as well as inspections of the field work. The special inspections do not relieve the fabricator or the erector of their quality control responsibilities. The fabricator and the erector are responsible to follow their quality control manual (assuming they have such a document). Various certification programs such as the AWS Certified Fabricator and AISC's Certified Fabricator and Certified Erector's programs require the fabricator and/or the erector to have quality control programs in place. The third party special inspector may be performing QA functions to ensure the QC functions are performed by the contractor or they may have specific inspections tasks assigned by the owner that have to be performed.

In any event, it would be good practice (and it would receive recognition from the GC and owner) if your employer perform field inspections to ensure your subcontractor was "doing it right".  The idea that your employer hired a subcontractor to perform the field work and to absolve your employer of responsibility for their work doesn't hold much water. Your employer is going to be held liable for any problems caused by their subcontractor.

Times are changing, what was accepted practice in the days gone by is no longer acceptable. When I started in this business, there were no CWIs and there was no field inspection. Then the building codes started requiring inspection of both shop and field work. Then AISC started their Certified Fabricator program that required the fabricator to have a quality control program with "qualified" shop inspectors. Now the Certified Erector program requires the erector to have a quality control program. So, overtime, the idea of quality control and inspection has matured and the idea that each entity is responsible for their work, i.e., the quality control of their work, has matured and become more formalized.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / how much authority

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