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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / inert gasses
- - By PipeIt (**) Date 07-14-2008 21:04
Is Nitrogen inert? I say no because it can mix with other elements and inert gasses can't, I was having a debate with one of the guys on this. Sometimes when brazing copper refridgeration systems we'll use Nitrogen for the internal purge, only because it displaces oxygen.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-14-2008 21:14
Argon, helium, neon, xenon, and krypton are inert. Nitrogen is not a true inert gas because as you mentioned, it will react with other elements to for nitrides and other compounds.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By SWP (**) Date 07-16-2008 16:43
It is my understanding that nitrogen, as a diatomic molecule N2, is inert, and it is when the molecule is broken down into atomic form N, by the welding arc, that it becomes reactive to form nitrides and such.  So, for purging on a closed root joint, where N2 is not exposed to the welding arc, N2 is basically inert, but when exposed to the arc, as in an Argon/Nitrogen torch gas blend for Duplex Stainless welding, N will diffuse into the steel and alter the ferrite/austenite balance.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 07-16-2008 16:46 Edited 07-16-2008 19:43
I seem to recall that nitrogen in the welding arc will ruin tungsten too?

Or am I thinking about co2?  I am more sure about the co2.
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 07-16-2008 17:39
Actually, the problem here, is the usage of the word inert.

When one refers to an "inert gas", it is usually understood as one of the monoatomic gases from the rightmost column of the periodic table (He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, Rn), as these molecules are the least likely of any, to react chemically with anything else.  Chemistry itself, is the study of the interactions of the electron shells of atoms, and the periodic table is grouped with all of the atoms in a column, having a similar valence shell (that's the outside, which is most of course, most involved in interactions) electron configuration.  The "inert gases", all fall into a column, with a valence shell that is full (neither in need of, or having an excess of electrons), and so those atoms are very "reluctant" to react with anything.

The word "inert", in the relative sense, refers to something that will not react with its surroundings.
So, atomic Nitrogen is not inert, as it reacts with itself to form the diatomic Nitrogen molecule (in contrast to the "inert gases", whose molecules are monoatomic).
N2 (and CO2), in the air (at room temperature) is relatively inert, in that it will not react with metals (unlike O2).
In the extreme heat of the welding arc, some things that appear inert at room temperature, are no longer so inert.  The heat of the arc can be so intense, as to break up those molecules into their constituent atoms, which are free to react with things other than themselves now.  N2, in fact, will break up at lower temperatures (such as in an oxy-fuel flame), where it will react with oxygen, to form nitric and nitrous oxide (among other things).
Parent - - By GRoberts (***) Date 07-16-2008 19:03
We in the welding community can probalby mis- or re-define words as good as anybody.  "inert" is a common term in the welding industry (i.e. MIG, TIG, etc), but isn't the name for the monotomic gasses in the rightmost column of the periodic table "noble gasses"?  I think both terms are commonly used though.  I agree that nitrogen would not fall into either category though.
Parent - By rlitman (***) Date 07-16-2008 19:29
Wellll, its pretty ambiguous terminology.
Yes, "noble gases" clearly refers to the group VIII elements (now sometimes called group 18).
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-17-2008 05:32
     I am pretty sure nitrides will form on steel at 900 deg F in a nitrogen atmosphere, pretty much lower than electric arc or even torch flame temps.

     So to PipeIt's statment I would add that nitrogen is used [when brazing copper lines] because it is the cheapest & most readily available gas for the purpose.
Parent - - By JAYDESAI (*) Date 07-18-2008 06:29
We are using Nitrogen as a cutting jet gas in our Trumph laser machine. Does it mean that it forms Nitrides adjecent to the areas of cutting kerf? Local temperature in laser cutting is high!
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 07-18-2008 13:29
We use nitrogen and O2 as a gas assist for our laser. I was under the impresison that laser cutters use the assist gas to physically remove the slag and cool the laser. I know we don't have any problem cutting with O2 but the surface quality isn't as clean.  I don't believe there's a serious amount of contamination of the base metal as the heat affected zone on a laser is so small.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 07-18-2008 13:43
It is the ability of nitrogen to become monatomic within the welding arc and then rebond that makes it 'active'. Thats why when N is used as a purge that gas which is adjacent to the ID surface, and never exposed to the welding arc will have negligable affect, whereas that gas which becomes exposed to the arc can become part of the weld deposit.
A phenomena that if it happens at all with He or Ar, is not common and of any practical concern in welding. Therefore, the use of 'inert' for Ar/He and 'active' for N is valid.
And yes, if your cutting with nitrogen you will have a nitrided layer.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / inert gasses

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