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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / More Great News.
- - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-16-2008 12:27
Check this link out. http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-odd/20080716/ODD.Missing.Manhole.Covers/

You would think that the scrap yards would do a better job of looking at what they're buying. Guess they really don't care. Just a few fun facts about Flint, MI. It is the birthplace of the UAW. All but two of the GM/UAW manufacturing sites there have been torn down. The very first Corvettes were manufactured in Flint, before the Bowling Green, KY facility was used to build them. Flint is in the top 6 cities in the USA for fastest population decline. Flint was rated the fourth most dangerous city in America 2005.

It's really sad. The greed of BOTH the management & union employees of the auto industry there did a lot of it to themselves though. S.W.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 07-16-2008 12:45 Edited 07-16-2008 13:17
I saw the manhole cover story yesterday too.  They really need to go hard on the people who try to sell them.  It should be a major crime because of the accidents it could cause.

I am from Michigan and am familiar with the auto industry having worked for 8 years as an auto welding engineer.  In terms of profit, GM always got by on volume with a much smaller profit margin than the Japs.  Now it seems the Japs have both margin AND volume which is killing GM.  The real killer is the lifetime medical benefits though.  That is unheard of in any other industry, and won't be around much longer in these market conditions.

Also, the American auto execs have been historically out of touch with the market.  In the 1970's people cared about fuel economy and the US had little to offer and suffered because of it.  In the 1990's, they repeated the same mistake by going for a portion of the market not held by the Japs - SUV's.  They invested billions in new SUV plants, only to ruin the national fuel economy and then after that, their own sales makert.  Now look where they are today?  Same as the 1970's.  They should learn from history, but they don't.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-16-2008 13:02
You hit it right on! I read Lee Iaccoca's first book & he talked in great length about how the "Legacy Benefits" & other unnecessary costs really hurt the Big Three. The US auto manufacturers always relied on volume, as you accurately stated & the fact that the Japanese didn't have a big share in the growing market. The mentality was, "Just keep the cars coming off the line, give the union & executive management what they want, we can make it back." Now, there's around 3 retirees for every one active employee & it's growing more every day. The Japanese don't have the overhead of legacy benefits, a largely retired workforce & old, inefficient plants. They cannot continue doing it this way, I don't care how much money they have.

I have talked with several GM people coming from big GM families that say "GM's got the money, they can pay it" That's about as shortsighted as the direction that got the Big Three in the mess they're in now. Now, the companies are in a frantic panic to cut costs, but the damage has already been done.  True, very true. S.W.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 07-16-2008 13:31
Steve,

I don't know how old you are, but can't forget that the band Grand Funk originated in Flint.  They took the name from the Grand Trunk Railroad.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 07-16-2008 13:36 Edited 07-16-2008 14:12
I am 49.  I don't remember Grand Funk, but I was in Jr. Hi. when Grand Trunk was big.  All I can remember from growing up there is that there were sometimes riots when the UAW went on strike.  In our town, they sometimes ganged up and rolled over cars that tried to cross the strike lines.  Wasn't always like that I suppose.  It only takes a few bad apples to give everyone a bad rep.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-16-2008 13:45
"We're an American band!" Ohhh yeah, GFR. Too bad Flint went downhill. If GM pulled out of Lansing, it would be the same way. S.W.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 07-16-2008 14:25
The Japanese came to America to study our way of business, improved it hugely and have succeeded, we need to take a hint.  If we don't start thinking and producing like (and better) than the Japanese, Koreans and yes, Chinese, we're doomed to fail.  Better products, lower prices, it sounds so simple...
Parent - - By okiewelder2 (**) Date 07-16-2008 23:20
if they didnt want to pay lifetime benefits they shouldnt have agreed to pay them. in 2002 general motors had an average of 40 hours of labor per vehicle. for the cost of a new vehicle that doesnt seem like a huge expense to me. what is hurting these companies is corporate greed and quality of there product. american cars are being built in other countries and foreign cars are being built in this country yet the price of the vehicles keep going up i wonder why that is. seems to me that it isnt because of the high cost of labor in this country. i dont think that toyota, volkswagon, mercedes, and honda is just trying to help out with the unemployment rate in this country.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-16-2008 23:45 Edited 07-16-2008 23:48
Things do change. When the "Legacy Benefits" were first introduced, the company was in a state of growth & they were making a lot of money. Now, not the same story. I do not believe in any way that the company should completely cut employees benefits. Not at all. Line level salaried workers have suffered the most. They have had the most taken from them. When I was building the Cadillac CTS, GM was making about $9000+ per vehicle when the average base cost was around $31,000 per unit. The quality standard of that particular vehicle was very high . Right on line with Toyota. I think poor vision & a record of repeating past mistakes cause the most problems for GM & the other American auto manufacturers.

They spend millions to save thousands. A perfect example is having a jobs bank for laid off skilled trades workers when they could be put back on the line as an assembly worker. Instead, the company pays them (& their benefits) to sit in an air conditioned room all day & do nothing. This is a fact, because the jobs bank was a couple miles away from my house & I seen it firsthand. The company can be much mare sensible about their spending & programs for their employees. When I left in 2005, I was making almost $28 per hour. Add COLA & shift premium, more like $30. Free benefits for my entire family NO out of pocket expense at all except for some minor copays. I never would have minded paying into my benefits package to cover a part of it. Nearly everyone else in industry is doing that already & has been for quite some time.

My point is, much like Iaccoca expressed, if everyone gave a little a long time ago, we all wouldn't be in the mess we're in now. The company will eventually pull the plug on the benefits because a compromise cannot seemed to be reached. Historically, the UAW refuses to budge on healthcare & eventually, the refusal to do so will result in dire consequences for everyone. Sure, the company has cash reserves in excess of billions of dollars. If they continue to make poor decisions regarding spending & investment (they gave 2 billion to Renault to bail them out) it will ruin them. They have traditionally passed all inflation of non value added costs along to the customer with increased vehicle prices. The market is far too competitive to continue with that train of thought now. The customer will buy a vehicle someplace else if they can't get what they want for the price they want to pay. Even their stocks have already neared junk bond status. Something has to give. I worked there over 5 years & know it for a fact.

It's not the same place my grandpa & both of my uncles worked. The stress to produce profit & save money has reached all the way to the line worker & they are being driven harder to do more with less. I never had a cake job in 5 years. I worked the line every day & have degeneration of the discs in my spine & carpal tunnel in both hands. They better figure out something. I got out because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life on nights, humping the line to find out after 25 years that they're pulling the plug on everything I was told I was going to get when I retired. It's too bad soo many people are effected by poor management, but no one's perfect. :-) S.W.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-17-2008 06:37 Edited 07-17-2008 06:39
   My cousin's wife left GM in '95, She was about 34 years old, was making over 100K/year and got a "golden handshake" package when She left. She quit on Her own, to spend time with He Mom & move back to Our area after He Dad died.

    Someone She knew, I think a former boss, got "displaced" a coupple years ago in a downsizing. He gets His full salary untill retirement, and then His retirement package kicks in. All He loses is a company car and health insurance, but since His wife is still employed by GM He is covered as Her spouse. This is executive downsizing, GM pays everything they used to pay Him when He worked minus a company car, He does nothing.

     Measures like this can't save a company.
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-17-2008 12:45
Yep. That's the stuff killing them. Like I said earlier. The floor level supervisors, the ones on the bottom tier are the ones that lost big. They have to pay a good portion of their health insurance & no longer have an actual pension. Just a 401K type plan. The execs take care of their own though.

I got $70K to quit. I can't ever go back, but after working in that new plant, working endless overtime & seeing no light at the end of the tunnel, I decided there were more important things than GM. I may not have a lot financially now, but I do NOT regret it. That's just me though. S.W.
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / More Great News.

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