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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding Ethics
- - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 08-15-2008 15:10 Edited 08-16-2008 01:22
This is a very difficult post for me to make but I need to do it.

I had a $35k part brought back to the shop the other night by inspection.  It had been bought off but there were mistakes on the paperwork that needed correction.  In the midst of stamping off the mistakes,,,,, I found someone had hand written in my name and number on the assembly work.  I have not done one of these assemblies in over a year and this was two months old, despite the fact I have a stamp. Underneath my name in the buyoffs for plating and anodizing where also handwritten sigs.  The other sigs were from another welding hand and IDENTICAL to the ones with my name (I checked other orders to make SURE).  I immediately pointed out the discrepancy to the inspector (I stamp, I dont sign s**T) and made multiple copies of the documents. Inspection and shift management are pretty interested in this already.

I decided to take things upon myself and approach the fellow the next day who had signed the work off below my forged name.  I took him in private and explained the severity of what could happen to someone caught doing this.  Then I asked him if he did because I needed to know before it got in front of management.   He totally denied doing it and explained he would never do that because he considered me a friend....as well as mentioned "they would have to prove it".  This guy is new and totally green to aerospace work.  This guy bald faced lied to me. STUPID    He has a family just like me and a kid with lukemia (eight years in on the fight).  I sincerely hope he is being honest...but its extremely difficult to believe.

I am of the mind if its occurred once it will occur again or already has.  I gave the guy a chance to end it right there and come clean..I.E. please don't ever do that again for whatever reason.   This is something I cannot let lie because it affects my job and my livelyhood.  If I bring this before management the end result will be this guy or whomever is determined to be responsible gets fired ....period.  Or worse he may face criminal charges....the FBI has been brought in before on similar situations in my company and even has conducted handwriting analysis at our sister facility so I am told....not even counting the FAA regs on documentation.   I try to be a nice guy but this is pushing my buttons just a bit.  I am giving myself this weekend off to decide what I will do..
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 08-15-2008 15:18
There is no place for this sort of thing in our profession. You obviously have a very difficult discussion to make and I would definitely take it to a higher level. You are obligated to now that you know. Just make sure you are absolutely right that it is this guy.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-15-2008 15:33
Hello Tom;

I would bring it to the attention of higher level of management. What do you know to be factually true?

It is not your signature! That's what you know and that's what you present to management. It is their responsibility to address the problem and if necessary find the individual responsible for falsifying the paperwork.

There is no reason for you to be the "bad guy" and there is no reason for you to accuse a specific individual for the act. Let management take responsibility and let them conduct any investigations needed to determine how your signature mystically appeared on the paperwork.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-15-2008 15:53
I'm with Al on this one...he has given sage advice here, present the facts and let the axe fall where it may....management will be looking into who the forger is...no need for you to point any fingers, unless you have factual evidence.
Parent - By 59halfstep Date 08-18-2008 09:13
I agree with Al.  You gave the guy the heads up, he needs the react if he is indeed responsible.  Let management sort out the facts.  You don't need to point them in any direction, they will find the answers in their own time.
Charlie
Parent - By Ringo (***) Date 08-15-2008 15:30
I'm in aerospace as well (inspector),and that dude could get into some serious trouble if you decided to push it.I was in a similar situation at one time,and the guy came clean,and I let it ride,and it never happened again. 
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 08-15-2008 16:45
Tom, why don't you see if it ever happens again. The guy was probably urinating himself, that's why he lied.

Chances are he will never do it again.
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 08-15-2008 16:55
Sorry to have to disagree with anyone again.  I'd bring it to management faster than you could spit.  That's your good name being used on that rework.

Edit: I really was on the fence with this one for a few moments...
Parent - By chris2698 (****) Date 08-15-2008 18:11 Edited 08-15-2008 18:15
I wouldn't let it slide I'd take it to upper management and let them decide who it is unless like someone else said you have proof that this person did forge your signature. I was at a job once that I let some things slide well I shouldn't have I ended up walking off the job without giving a 2 week notice but I can say now I will not let anything slide I will take whatever I have to upper management because once they learn they can get away with they'll keep doing it, thats how it was in my case. Sure he has a family like you but you know what if he really is in the wrong he doesn't care about you only worried about his own a** sorry if I have become a real a-hole but I will never let that kinda stuff happen to me again.

Chris
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 08-15-2008 19:49
Tom

I believe that this was a criminal act.  You are involved.  It may have happened before, and it may or may not happen again if you do not report it.  If it is a flight safety item, you have an immediate obligation to report it.  If it is a non-flight safety item take the weekend, but be sure to report it early Monday.  Even though it is not your signature, it looks like it is yours to others.  You are involved. Turn it in, and tell what you know and what you believe, and why.  Delay equals collusion.
Parent - - By and4rik (**) Date 08-15-2008 20:19 Edited 08-15-2008 20:22
This is the exact reason Why I am a "nice guy" in most situations..  When it comes time to bring the hammer down I am able to do it w/ blunt force.  Don't consider yourself the bad guy here just because his kid has leukimia.  What are you supposed to do let this guy keep his freedom while we all sit on the aeroplanes your company has built.  I would have to say not doing anything but giving him a second chance will definately make you the bad guy.  Do us all a favor and push all your chips in, sounds like he thinks your bluffing.

  -hogan wrote this " Just make sure you are absolutely right that it is this guy. "
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 08-16-2008 01:16
I agree with the consensus here:   Maybe this guy is innocent, I hope he is and is being honest, although my gut strongly suggests otherwise.  I have no need to point fingers or business in making accusations.   Management and Inspection will handle this problem as long as I present it like this:  This needs to be documented, investigated and addressed.  This will probably be a walk across the ramps with my boss to the plush carpet and a few hours of my time.   It does not need to happen again as this type of behavior can effect lives in the air and on the ground.  I hate this crap but yall are absolutely right it needs to be addressed. 

To Joe and the rest of you:  This is not a flight critical item, and most of them are not.  Only certain folks do that kind of work here [wink]

I really appreciate all the replies as this is a very difficult decision for me.   Thank you so much.
Parent - - By choche Date 08-16-2008 02:22
WHY NOT TRY TO HANDLE IT BETWEEN THE 2 OF YOU? IF YOU CAN HANDLE IT WITHOUT HAVING TO GO TO UPPER MANAGMENT CAN WORK BETTER SOMETIMES IF HE'S REALLY A GOOD GUY HE SHOULD GET HIS SH*T TOGETHER AND WILL HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR YOU AND IT WILL BE BETTER WORKING ENVIREMENT. LEAD BY EXAMPLE AND LIKE I SAID IF YOU WORK WITH GOOD PEOPLE LEAD AND THEY SHOULD FALL IN LINE, IF NOT THEN DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET RID OF HIM. PEOPLE ONLY FOLLOW OUT OF RESPECT OR FEAR AND IN THE WORK PLACE IT SHOULD PROBABLY BE RESPECT WHY THEY FOLLOW. BUT THEN AGAIN USUALLY YOUR GUT IS ALWAYS RIGHT. 
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 08-16-2008 03:03
ummm  choche  I did try to handle it that way if you read my first post.  I could be utterly wrong in my assumptions, there fore they will no longer enter the picture at all.  I absolutely am not interested in throat cutting, backstabbing or any of that other bs.  He says he did not do it, ok fine no problem....then he should have no care if management pursues finding out who did and takes care of it.  I am a FIRM believer that the truth and utter honesty will always win out.   I am laying prayers that the good Lord steps in and controls this situation for anyone and everyone involved.  I have to follow my conscious and my heart and do the right thing.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 08-16-2008 03:24
tommy, I've got to side with the majority on this one and Joe is correct, this sounds like a criminal act and if there were a next time, whose to say it wouldn't be on a flight safety issue?  Turn it over brother.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-16-2008 03:48
   Tommy, I think You need to file the complaint in wrighting, and have a copy to keep Yourself. A picture of both copies and that days newspaper might even be a good idea just incase Your name did get forged on critical parts. I agree that You don't need to point the finger, let the management figure out who is guilty.
Parent - - By and4rik (**) Date 08-16-2008 03:59
yeah tommy your on the right track give it to upper managment.  I see how this is a difficult descision for you as this guy says he considers you a friend.  Once again document document document xerox and document again.  This part is worth 35k, wether or not this guy did it if you dont' cover your ass it will come back and bite ya.  Can't tell you how many times someone has said yeah were with you and then at the critcal point are nowhere to be found leaving you to fend for youself,  I'll say it a gain cover your ass.
Just out of curiosity, what would you have done if he confessed to the forgery of the bat?
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 08-16-2008 06:15 Edited 08-16-2008 06:27
Jon you are correct and thats the seriousness of the matter.

Dave it will be documented and signed before I leave it up to them.  Don't worry bout that one.  Copies are handed to all involved in situations like this.  Dave this is something that is a very sensitive issue due to the kind of work...trying to cover my ass by calling up a newspaper would only cause great harm to the company and all that work there.   I have no worries of any trouble coming my way as it is obvious I did not have anything to do with it....thats why we have stamps that are under lock and key. Ultimately its up to the powers that be to make the determination and I am fine with leaving it up to them.

and4rik  I would have simply explained again how serious this could be and why it should not happen.  I would have said please don't ever do this again for your own sake. I would suggest we explain to our immediate boss what has occurred together....BUT if he was uncomfortable with doing that  ....a handshake and a solemn promise would be the end of it right there.  The truth always conquers any problem.  People make mistakes its our nature. 
Parent - - By and4rik (**) Date 08-16-2008 06:38
I myself have made many mistakes in my life and will be the first to atest to that.  I give you all the respect Tommy, For what you are doing and what you would have done.
Parent - By Sberry (***) Date 08-16-2008 12:35
I don't read all the stuff but happened on to this one. Very good thread. It shows good judgment to ask here for some council, most people don't bother, shows you are well thought out on this.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-16-2008 15:20 Edited 08-16-2008 15:52
Tommy,

Sorry to be getting in so late on this one........ Have been home a total of 4 days since June 29.

This is big.... You MUST run this all the way up the flagpole.  If front level management does not push this to the point of getting a solid confession or proof of who forged your signature it needs to be brought to the attention of the next highest authority.. and so on and so on, until the question is RESOLVED...

If this is left unresolved and some other componant with your falsified signature causes a failure on wing, it will be traced right back to you... (I've seen this happen) If you don't get this resolved with absolute clairity, it will be interpreted as tacit acceptance of the validity of your signature on all bogus parts that have been forged with your name. Buddy this is big.

Do not skip any of the links in the command chain.. Respectfully go up one link at a time and if you are not satisfied at any stage let that manager know that you are committed to seeing this through each step.  You will probably not get any support out of your shop steward but it would be wise to get him/her in on the ground floor of this for the sake of your own best interest.

Department management... QA are first... Do not drop a dime to the Govt branches until you have exhausted the chain at home. Do not under any circumstances go to the media or papers unless you are ready to begin a new career the day after the article comes out.

The first thing you must do is establish the path for your inquiry. You should meet with your shop steward and Department manager *together* to put a strategy in writing about how *THEY* are going to conclude this matter. You are just along for the ride, providing data, it is not your case,  it's theirs and it is potentially disasterous for them to ignore. (low level  and mid level managers often want to ignore this kind of thing)

There is a process for this in your AOP's, in your ISO doccumentation (if you are qualified) and finally in FAA regulations.... Best to begin with company regs. Trust me on this Tommy, after 15 years in both labor and management in the largest airline in the world... There is a good process in place for making a solution to this, but you must map it out and stick to it, using the command chain gaurantees you will not be ignored or diciplined yourself for your righteous actions.

Don't even think about who did it and how many kids they have. That's not your problem.  Somebody stole your signature (exactly the same as stealing your stamp and using it)  Like Joe said, it's a crime.  They would not have gone to the trouble of stealing your name if the componant in question was airworthy.  (this is the real point) If the part was airworthy they would have simply walked it over to you and got you to stamp it eh?  It's not about pride or your signature... It's about planes splashing into the cold cold sea.

This is not an issue to be solved by some face to face chat. It's a felony (probably a string of them). Stealing your name and puting parts on planes that are not airworthy is too big a deal to just let go by with a promise to behave and a handshake... Like I said Tommy, at this point you are personally responsible for every bogus part with your signature on it, whether it is forged or not.... Get to the bottom of this.  

If that means every componant this new guy has ever touch gets reinspected..... so be it. If taking this up the chain makes that happen than its the right thing to do.  Ignoring it or allowing some manager trying to settle this thing "man to man" only leaves you and the flying public vulnerable.

The rat that did this must be removed from aerospace world...

Until that happens, and the paperwork for every componant the rat has touched has been reevaluated, you should respectfully move up the chain.
Parent - By choche Date 08-16-2008 15:58
sorry dude missed that on the first thread, but ya if you told him and he denied it then of course he should not have a problem with you going to management. If at all possible I try to handle things with my crew among us but I was not suggesting you were a backstabber I appoligize if it came off that way.
Parent - By chris2698 (****) Date 08-16-2008 17:39
Thanks Lawrence my last job I had a situation well not like this exactly but it was pretty bad but you have taught me a few things that I will use later on if something like this did ever come up.

Thanks
Chris
Parent - By and4rik (**) Date 08-16-2008 20:06
Yeah,  work the system, or it will work you.  This is why I call the cops when the neighbors are throwing a party at 2 am.  Yeah I could go aout there and kick somass  but what happens then the cops put me in jail for assault and the party goes on.  These FAA protocals Lawrence is talking about are there for a reason.. use them.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-17-2008 03:58
Tommy, I was NOT suggesting that this be reported on by or published in a newspaper, just that You might use a pic with the day's paper in it to PROVE You had not back dated the letter, if You were to be called on the date. I understand the seriousness of this issue, and the need for You to report it to the bosses ASAP. As Joe Kane pointed out, any attempt to ignore this or "work it out between the pair of You" puts You in a real bad position.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 08-17-2008 18:54
Tommy

I'm glad to hear that this is not a flight safety issue.  (At least it is not a flight safety issue THIS time.)  You still must report this, just because of the type of work that your company does!

I have some more suggestions.

A better way to legally prove that you did not back date the letter is to send it to your boss Registered Mail.  Send a copy to yourself, (also by Registered Mail) with a copy of the postal receipt from the letter you send your boss.   Do not open the copy you send to yourself.  Place it in another larger envelope and mark the outside of it, and mail it to yourself again! 

A picture with the day's paper in it only proves that you wrote the letter after the paper was published.  You could have had that newspaper laying around for weeks, then wrote the letter and took a picture of it next to the letter.

There may be nothing come of it.  I was on an inspection job, where the shop foreman forged my Associates signature on a follower sheet on a New York State Bridge Girder fabrication.  We wrote up an NCR and mailed a complaint  to the DOT immediately.  There are Federal Funds involved in most State Bridges, and we were hoping something would be done to remove that particular foreman, but It turns out that the follower was for internal use only, so unless they filed the follower, no crime was committed.

However, I have seen this type of thing blow up before.  I had a consulting job that I couldn't handle, so I referred it to a P. E. friend, who was an expert in that type of welding.  (I don't know if you are old enough to remember the ABSCAM Scandal and the WEDTECH Scandal.)  Almost a year after that referral, my friend was raided, right after daybreak, in the middle of the winter, by the FBI.  They hustled him and his wife out of the house in their night clothes to wait, while they searched the house and took all his computer equipment.  They blocked the whole street and the neighbors couldn't get out to go to work, until the FBI finished searching the house.  The neighbors must have thought he was a major drug dealer! 

It turns out that WEDTECH was a major defense contractor that was getting kick backs from vendors and had a bunch of phony "Consultants" that they were charging to the government.   Anyone who was listed as a Vendor or as a Consultant for WEDTECH was raided and investigated.  (I never responded to the solicitation, so I was not listed.)   My friend registered with them, but never did a dime's worth of work for them.  He only got his computer back a year later, and nothing worked right on it and all of his personal data was scrambled or lost.

Do not agree to keep this secret, after your boss is told.  You can agree not to discuss it with anyone but the proper authorities.  Do not participate in any discussions where the company decides to keep this quiet or slants the information to minimize damage to the company.  It is all too easy for you to get involved in criminal "Conspiracy".  Smart, well intentioned Lawyers get caught up in "Conspiracy" crime, and do not even realize it, until they are arrested. Do not tell the newspapers or the rest of the world.  Let your boss and the company attorneys handle it, but do not even agree to get coaching from the company attorneys on how to present your answers to investigators, should this issue come that far.  They can steer you into conspiracy actions, and remain blameless.  It is you who would commit the actual crime.

I hope all turns out well.  CYA

Joe Kane
Parent - By chris2698 (****) Date 08-17-2008 23:44
dam Joe thats some deep sh*t
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 08-17-2008 20:06
you are not responsible for others actions, only your own. now that you have spoken to the person about this,unless you immediately report it forthwith than you are a co-conspirator. you have done nothing wrong and you should behave as though that is so. i would drop what you are doing right now and phone the authorities and tell them what you know and what has transpired. even the communications on this forum can be used in legal actions against you should this turn ugly. for the sake of yourself and your family. CONTACT THE AUTHORITIES IMMEDIATELY.
darren
Parent - - By mcostello (**) Date 08-18-2008 02:09
I am just a wannabe's wannabe's welder. I am impressed with the ethics of doing the job "right" that is presented here. I am humbled to know "someone" cares that much about their work to set the record straight. I understand the legal ramifications, but this seems more than that.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 08-18-2008 13:57 Edited 08-18-2008 14:23
I took the first steps this morning, it was not pleasant, for me or anyone else.  Great way to end my day and I am sure tomorrow will be even more fun.  But the ball is in official hands as of now...we shall see how it plays out.  I am on my fourth beer already after seeing the kids off to school. 

I know there is a LOT of concern here over the seriousness of invalid work, planes crashing etc.  Although its still guidelines and rules broken...let me assure ALL of you this was not any part that could crash or cause distress to any flight.  This part was inspected and approved and cleared for use....the issue here is falsified paperwork which is serious enough in itself.  No matter what, all the parts we do STILL must be inspected, in multiple step processes.  This is FAA regs that require a LOT of people look at, check and test things before they say ok.  I don't want anyone to misinterpret what is happening here that is unfamiliar with the industry, this case is a question of responsibility, ethics and personal liability.  I fully understand that a lapse in ethics on paperwork can be a lapse in ethics on the work itself...thats why its been brought to light and I will see it thru.

Al  you said it as simply, succinctly and as to the point as can be.  As always you cut right down to the bone of the matter.

Dave I am sorry I misunderstood...rough weekend.

and4ik  thank you, but I am no saint myself LOL!

choche  I did not take it that way man...seems like a way of life where I work tho.  thanks  no worries here.

Lawrence   certainly no need to apologize bud   we all got lives to live eh?  I sure hope it was vacation instead of work...long time away from home!  I am very glad you threw your hat in the ring on this tho...your advice is greatly appreciated.  You were right Lawrence...the more I see ...well ....  the less I like.    Thanks

Joe I fully understand the point you are making and you are right.  You can scare the fur off a peach if you want too as well.  I took the first step, I got backup copies secured and I am getting management signatures on documentation of the "situation". The parts in question already have inspection stamps on them, there fore the date on the stamps is set in stone, too many witnesses to the initial discovery of the issue as well,  I appreciate your serious concern and your comments.

Darren  I took the first steps of what may be a long road this morning.  It will turn out ok...I was assured officially that I did the right thing and I am clear of any discrepancies on paperwork that does not have my stamp.  I have documentation to hold for any future discoveries at this point.

This has been the first of what I expect to be a several "not good" days, but you gotta do what you gotta do.  Folks from the bottom of my heart I really really appreciate all of you and you taking the time to post your thoughts on this situation.  You need to know each and every one of you that you have helped me tremendously with something I wrestled with and found hard as heck to deal with on a personal level.

Thank you
Tommy
Parent - By darren (***) Date 08-18-2008 23:09
its the difficult decisions that define  a man not the easy ones and in my books your a good man tom.
good on yah.
respectfully
darren
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 08-19-2008 01:13
Tommy. I was on vacation all week & just got a look at this. It sucks to be a stand up guy when someone else decided not to & pull you into something by their reckless actions. To me, it really doesn't matter whether the part was going on a bicycle...Or the Space Shuttle.

Falsifying documents is serious business...Especially when YOUR name ends up on it & you could be in a position of taking responsibility for something you had no part in. It's even worse when there may be some tiny amount of doubt to weather or not the individual in question actually did it or not. Not to mention, he has a family situation you have empathy for.

Nevertheless, you did the right thing by going thru the channels. When I was an asst exec supervisor in the kitchen, I had a couple cases where I felt sorry for a guy that I caught doing something he could have been fired, AND prosecuted for....And let it slide. In both cases, that guy put a knife in my back for doing him a favor. I should have done the responsible thing & informed the right authorities, so the case could have been handled right. Letting someone like that off could eventually result in him doing something that could get someone injured, or killed by his irresponsible actions & disregard for following procedure & the rules.

I regret letting that stuff I was involved in slide to this day. I should have done the right thing. I sincerely think you did.

Best of luck on it. Steve.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding Ethics

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