well after a long time of off and on practicing when I could get pipe or wasnt discouraged I think I finally got it. The last few nights I have been putting in some really good root passes with nice looking penetration thanks to some much apprecited help from a friend who took the time to come over and help. It is funny the guys that weld pipe for gas companys or pipelines at least around here in my area would all tell me how I would get it sooner or later or tell me how there is a big demand for pipe welders or just waste my time telling me how good they are but not one of them would take the time to come help me you can bet I would offer to go over and help someone and show them what little I know. It took about 2 minutes (honestly) for the guy that came over here too show me the one little thing I wasnt doing right. But oh well at least I think I got it or at least Im alot better than I was...So if you can and Im sure it would be appreciated show someone what they need to do we all got to learn something new somehow..