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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Fingernailing 6010+
- - By ZCat (***) Date 09-25-2008 03:36
Is there any way to cut down on fingernailing? Sure makes a pain in the butt trying to put in a root.
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 09-25-2008 03:45
Have you tried moving your hand slightly from side to side.This will even out where the rod is making contact on the land. Or sometimes, if you take a look at the tip of the rod, the flux may not have been applied evenly when it's being made at manufacturer.
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 09-25-2008 03:56
Yeah, I've twisted my hand halfway in a circle! I know the tricks to weld with it, just wondering if anybody knows a way to eliminate it altogether.
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 09-25-2008 04:10
I'm pretty surprised at the way the quality of these rods has gone so far downhill in the last few years. Lincoln don't make 'em like they used to. Granted, I haven't used these rods much in the last few years till recently, but I don't remember ever having to file the flux off the end just so I could get them to strike up.
Parent - By up-ten (***) Date 09-25-2008 05:10
Are these the 5p+ 6010?  When you said you haven't used them much, are you saying they've been on your shelf all that time or you've just  been using another process?  Not too long ago with the 5p rod, I would see guys dip 'em in water to eliminate fingernailing but not on a 5p+. I use the 5p+ all the time in the field and I haven't had a rod fingernail in a long time. I don't know, seems kinda weird.
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 09-25-2008 14:24
Try changing your heat range, If you are running 190/50 try 240/35. If you are running in the 240 range, step down to 190. I use the old SA 200 250 numbers YMMV
BABRt's
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 09-25-2008 18:16
Hello ZCat, I certainly won't argue your thoughts on quality of rods. However, fingernailing to me is generally an indicator of a possible grounding issue, namely arc-blow. If you are already well aware of how this sort of thing can have an effect then just ignore my comments. There have been numerous conversations on various threads concerning this topic. If you are so inclined, do a search of the forum archives on the arc-blow topic and I'm sure that you will find a host of information that could possible help you with the fingernailing issue. For reference, the arc-blow phenomenon essentially sets up a magnetic field due to the directional flow of the DC current in the parts being welded and this field can cause the arc to either favor one side or the other of the weld joint or else it can possibly cause the arc to want to pull back towards the hottest part of the weld bead which is the puddle and the weld metal that has already been deposited in the groove. So in the case of the rootpass, the arc is trying to go back to the part that has already been welded and it leaves the fingernail of rod flux as it burns out the underside of the rod closest to the pipe root groove. Hope this helps some and if you look back over some of the past posts I'm sure you will possibly find other points to consider to address this problem. Best regards, aevald
Parent - - By scrappywelds (***) Date 09-27-2008 22:06
i'm not familar with the "fingernailing" term. Could someone describe what it is, it might be called something else around my neck of the woods?
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-27-2008 22:43
Flux on the electrode not burning back on one side. Ive always heard it referred to as that or toenailing.
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 09-27-2008 22:52
Throw out the rod and open a new can.

It's extreemly unusual for 5P+ to fingernail, the old hippy was world famous for it but the new hippy is pretty good.

Many welding problems are fixed by opening a new can and that goes for 5P+, 70+, hippy and 8P+.

JTMcC.
Parent - By TRC (***) Date 09-27-2008 23:15
I agree with JT, I'm not sure I've ever experienced it with Lincoln 5P+. Now there are a few 5p+ wananbees than fingernail like crazy, Hobart just to name one- Ted
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 09-27-2008 22:57 Edited 09-28-2008 18:15
Hello scrappywelds, I'll add just a bit more to pipewelder_1999's description. Most of the time, the term fingernailing is applied to welding vertical-up beads. As you attempt to weld the vertical, the flux burns away on the side of the rod that is closest to the weld bead or behind it and the top side or the side facing you doesn't, resulting in a pointed extension of the flux covering of the rod. So many refer to this as "fingernailing". Between the two descriptions I believe you will understand what it refers to. Would be curious to know what it might be called by yourself and others in your area, always looking to learn more. Best regards, aevald
Parent - - By leterburn (**) Date 09-27-2008 23:04
One thing that helps me is a slight twisting motion of the rod...  ie coming down the pipe and twisting the rod (looking lengthwise from the stinger to the bead) from approx 1:00 to 11:00 while keeping it at the lead angle you need.
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 09-27-2008 23:16
I'm down with the throw away and open a new can option.

How do you guys store your 5P type rods? We have ours in a rod caddy that doesn't get plugged in. They start to fingernail after a few days. It's pretty humid over here in northwestern Washington.

I tried to tell these yahoos we need a box with a light fixture in it to keep the moisture down, but I guess they prefer to just buy new rods, though they may not realize how many of them I throw away. hehe
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 09-28-2008 00:09
I use those 10lb blue plastic containers to put my cellulose rods in as soon as I open the can. It gets very humid here on the east coast as well and after only a few days you can notice the performance drop off. Once they start to swell while burning one I open another can and trash the rest. It sucks doing that but I haven't had to weld on dumpsters in a really long time. Also I think cellouse rods have a shelf life. In the past ,on several occasions I have used Lincoln 5P+ that has set on a shelf for more than a year and it ended up in the S can. Maybe some one can help with this next theory but isn't cellulose organic which means it could easly start to decompose while sitting on a shelf? Ted
Parent - - By scrappywelds (***) Date 09-28-2008 03:29
oh ok. I know what you mean. it does make the arc act funny. to be honest never heard it called anything but "that piece of $*#! rod". I have found that the xx10 rod if they have that whiteish lines on the flux tend to do that, from being in the open air too long. If they look like that I don't use them. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Parent - - By BasnettUSMC (*) Date 01-28-2009 19:49
Hey,
this may be just a new entry on a long old thread, but, I wanted to say that if any 6010 especially the red ones (i don't remember what they're called) show anything other than the color of fresh red clay, then the weld quality of the rod is as bad as it gets sometimes. I've had some of these not only fingernail, but, also just "spit fire" where the flux catches fire all the way up the rod to the stinger. I really don't like the red ones, I think I'll have better chances of getting a good strong weld with 7018 that have been setting out for a while, but, I'm now on the east coast, and I'm having hell with the humidity over here.
Parent - - By chris2698 (****) Date 01-28-2009 20:36
I've used the lincoln 6010 and they were red and they finger nail like crazy actually I learn to weld pipe with them boy did they suck after I the 6010 5p+ it was so dang easy to weld I felt like i was in heaven
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 01-28-2009 23:22
Yeah 5p+ was and is a godsend. I remember testing for my pressure ticket and 5p+ had just made the shelves of most shops. But not at the test shop that day 'cause they wanted us to use the old 5p all up and you just held your breath when you started a new rod. 
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 01-29-2009 16:38
yep i agree the 5p+ is a god send all i had when i got out of the hospital was a 50lb unopend box of 5p i'm using them but will be glad when they are gone cant wait to restock with 5p+ also like the 8010 rod 
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 01-29-2009 14:45
Basnett, if you rod catches fire all the way to the stinger then your running it too hot for the electrode size.  Go to the next size rod.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 01-29-2009 14:51
Change to a Lincoln 5p+ rod. That will fix your problems ;-)
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 01-29-2009 16:50
I built a small box and put a light inside, it has helped out tremendously.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 01-29-2009 20:32
Hello ZCat, you may already be well aware of this, yet if you aren't, any of the E6010s require a certain amount of moisture to bind the components that makes up the flux cover. If you bake it or warm it to a point where this moisture level has been compromised or reduced too much, it will likely affect how well it runs. So, I believe there is a fine line where humidity and (for lack of a better term) manufactured moisture compromise one another. So for me personally, I would tend to go with a suggestion that others have possibly included in this thread (or other threads) where, after opening the box, I would store the left-overs in one of the sealable rod cannisters. A few thoughts for consideration. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 01-30-2009 01:29
This has been working out fine.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 01-30-2009 03:11
Hello ZCat, short story, if it works....... all is good. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 01-30-2009 03:53
Hello Allan. I remember seeing fellas takin' a handful of 5P and dunking it water before firing up. Personally, I'd refrain from that, but they swore by it. I guess better than swearing at it when it does fingernail on ya.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 01-30-2009 04:11
Hello Bob, I have also heard similar suggestions. As you and I both know, this wouldn't likely meet approval for any "code" requirements and that's all that I will comment on the subject. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 01-30-2009 04:19
What in the code would prohibit it?
I know of several jobs where low moisture content was blamed for ongoing rod problems. One where Lincoln recomended adding moisture by filling full cans of rod with water in the afternoon, turning them upside down overnight. On transmission line work. Quite a few cans of rod had been shipped back to Lincoln. This solved their ongoing problem.
I know of a job going right now that is using a different method, but still putting moisture into the rods, again big bore main line construction.
Cellulose consumables differ quite a lot from lohi consumables in almost every way. 70+ that's too dry is a curse.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 01-30-2009 04:29
The problem here in NW Washington state was too much moisture. They would open up a can of rod and just leave it sitting out in the air, after a few days they were pretty much unuseable. The light in the box just keeps them a little warm, they don't get hot enough to harm them.
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 01-30-2009 05:45
It can be done but it's pretty hard to get too much moisture in cellulose rods.
I've welded, with 5P+ and 70+ in Washington as well as a lot of other very wet enviroments and these rods are definitly not unusable after a few days (or a few weeks) exposure to atmosphere.
In fact, when you turn on your stove the gas has been transported to you thru pipelines welded with those rods and nobody throws out rod after a few days.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 01-30-2009 06:22
Hello JTMcC, I suppose that I should have worded my response differently. I haven't gone through any of the codes to see how they might address the moisture issues regarding cellulose rods. My bad. I am well aware of the detrimental effects of too little moisture. I guess I'll have to see if any of the codes do in fact address this or see if there is any documentation to indicate the effects of various levels of moisture on the cellulose rods or their weld deposits. Meanwhile, I'll just wait for others to chime in here and give their $.02. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By ZCat (***) Date 01-30-2009 06:50
Maybe unusable was a bad description.

More like I didn't want to use them, because it was a huge pain in the butt to lean them sideways and twist them trying to get the side of the rod where the arc was coming out lined up with the root opening. It can be done, but the results aren't exactly optimal, IMHO.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-31-2009 04:00
I have used 6011s & 6013s that had layed around open in a barn for years, they were just plain miserable.
I keep Mine in a dry basement, some are probably 30 years old and work OK.
Parent - By up-ten (***) Date 01-31-2009 16:55
30 YEARS OLD!! And work ok?  Wow. I've got some 7010 HYP that have been left open for a year and they're all discoloured. Don't know if I'd take those out on the next job.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Fingernailing 6010+

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