Inspecting your own welds?

Date 10-03-2008 00:25

I don't believe that ASME sec VIII (Assuming you are working to this code) requires an AWS CWI to inspect welds on fabricated vessels. The required inspections and personnel certification should have been reviewed and approved by your client prior to the start of fabrication. Is it ethical? I think if your client approves then it is satisfactory for that vessel and project. Should welder and welding Inspector/quality control be separated to ensure some form of integrity for your quality control system? I believe so. This question has been asked and addressed in some form before on this forum. Search and you'll probably find some discussion that will help you further.

By raptor34 (**)

Date 10-03-2008 00:42

If the person is certified then he should be able to, the welder is the first line inspector. If the welder has any pride in his work then he will make the right calls.

By vagabond (***)

Date 10-03-2008 00:52

I'd like to see some more input on this topic from people who know. I've questioned this very thing myself, and as yet have not found a reference in a code or standard applicable to a welder inspecting and/or testing his own welds??? Is it legal or not?? I too would question the ethics of it I suppose, however if done properly it is either acceptable or rejectable no matter who is eyeballing it as long as they are going "by the book" so to speak.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 10-03-2008 03:42

From an ASME perspective, it is not a matter of legal or not. As many of you know, ASME differentiates between examination and inspection with the term "Inspector" referring to an Authorized Inspector (AI, ANI, etc) who is employed by an insurance company or jurisdiction. Examination can be performed by any person on the fabricator side however when customer's discover welders are inspecting their own welds it WILL raise some eyebrows. That said, the welder SHOULD be his own first line inspector. Again from an ASME perspective, more credence is placed on NDE and pressure testing than visual examination (not saying visual isnt important!). Anyway, there's my take.

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 10-03-2008 05:09

In ASME terms the inspector is employed by the owner. No specific education or certificate is required.
Examination - in my opinion - is done by the fabricator, some of the examinations has to be performed by qualified NDT personel hired by the fabricator.

To answer the original question asked, no I dont think the welder can do the final inspection of his own weld. He has to inspect it, but not make the final acceptance.

Defects which can be discovered visual, is by many experts considered to be some of the most critical defects as they can be serious stress raisers.
Funny how many codes dont even require the visual examiner to be certified, but just to have experience and knowledge.

3.2

By raftergwelding (*****)

Date 10-04-2008 05:25

" No specific education or certificate is required" the why are so many people spending thousands of dollars on certs if they dont need them and no educatrion how can you become an inspector if noone teaches you how dont make any sense the d1.1 test is 800 and the seminar is 1900 so what you are saying is dont waste your money you dnt need it then i'd like to know where to go it would save me the headache of scrapping everything i got to go to school to learn all this stuff i dont need

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 10-04-2008 05:56

Shad, the price of becoming certified is well worth it. Many Codes don't require "specific" certification for it's visual inspector's because there are so many methods; internal or company certification, of course the AWS CWI, CWB CSWIP, IIW, etc., etc. Back in the very early 1980's, D1.1 made a mandate that ONLY CWI's would be suitable for inspection personnel. After several lawsuits, you will see current requirements in D1.1 read like this:

If the Engineer elects to specify the basis of inspector qualification, it shall be so stated in contract document.

The acceptable qualification bases are the following:

(1) Current or previous certification as an AWS Certified
Welding Inspector (CWI) in accordance with the provisions of AWS QC1, Standard and Guide for Qualification and Certification of Welding Inspectors, or

(2) Current or previous qualification by the Canadian Welding Bureau (CWB) to the requirements of the Canadian Standard Association (CSA) Standard W178.2,Certificatìon of Welding Inspectors, or

An engineer or technician who, by training or experience, or both, in metals fabrication, inspection and testing, is competent to perform inspection of the work.

ASME also leaves the method of selecting the basis for qualification of VT staff up to the employer however if it is code stamp work you can bet the Authorised Inspector (AI, ANI, etc) will be checking as will Customer's who may audit facilities.

That said, just because some of the codes are non-specific, there are many reasons for wanting certified people.

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 10-04-2008 07:26

As jon say, there are plenty of reasons to become certified.

Here in europe we have to comply to PED, PED is a very strict set of guidelines which has to be followed when making new pressure equipment with an operating pressure >0.5 bar
One funny thing, PED does not require any specific education/certification for the inspectors (the examiners has to be certified AND approved by a third party body) which in theory means that when a company build a new 200 bar P91 steam line they can select who ever they think is suiteble for the inspections.

Most clients however require some kind of education/certification.

I have rejected some inspectors the contractor brought in, they were certified but had little experience (and I myself has been rejected a few times)

3.2

By kipman

Date 10-03-2008 12:50

Here's an old thread on the subject: http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=53210;hl=QC1.
And another: http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=36896;hl=QC1.
A lot of different opinions.
Mankenberg

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 10-03-2008 13:49 Edited 10-03-2008 13:59

The ethical situation would be based upon an individual project. Companies do this all the time. They inspect their finished product, say its good, and let an outside inspector either inspect 100% and/or review their internal documentation for the item. If all parties are aware of the situation I do not see a direct violation of anything. As already indicated, ASME indicates the requirements for inspectors an seem pretty clear on whats allowed. A companies quality system that is designed around ASME requirements would be a better place to look. Often times there is a distinct separation of production and quality in the written quality system however that MAY not be a code requirement.

Though I understand this strays from the original context of Sec VIII here is some text from a B31 code regarding quality system requirements.

J-1.2.1 Authority and Responsibility. The authority
and responsibility of those in charge of the quality control
system shall be clearly established. Persons performing
quality control functions shall have sufficient
and well-defined responsibility, the authority, and the
organizational freedom to identify quality control problems
and to initiate, recommend, and provide solutions.
J-1.2.2 Organization. An organization chart showing
the relationship between management and engineering,
purchasing, manufacturing, field assembling, inspection,
and quality control is required to reflect the actual
organization. The purpose of this chart is to identify
and associate the various organizational groups with
the particular function for which they are responsible.
The Code does not intend to encroach on the Manufacturer's
right to establish, and from time to time to alter,
whatever form of organization the Manufacturer considers
appropriate for its Code work.

Every welder should inspect his own welds. Of couorse I have used some different acceptance criteria on a few made after 30+ hours awake :) . I have truly looked at welds that were completed and then came back later and was highly confident that someone else welded them. That was many years ago and I learned from the experience.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 10-05-2008 01:30

You cannot be refused the right to examine your own welds nor to write up a report upon their quality. Every welder should examine his own work. As a certified welder, shop owner, and CWI I can follow through the entire process. It is then up to the customer, and in many situations a government inspector, to decide how much weight they want to assign to your report of your work. If you develope the reputation for honesty and consistency of quality it will mean more and more.

Before I took the exam, I found references in many places (code of ethics, quals and specs for inspectors, D1.1 and others of the study materials-none of which are in front of me right now) that if you were receiving pay from two conflicting sources on the same job (welding shop- inspection) you needed to make that position clear and if all the parties involved understood and saw no problem then it was 'ok'.

I prefer to have my people and myself checked by outside agencies to keep all things above reproach. I still do much in house myself before anyone else sees it. Why not? Keep the quality up all the time. It just shows everyone how honest, consistant, and professional you and your shop are in producing quality finished products.