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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / A Challenge to Those Defending Obama
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- - By js55 (*****) Date 10-08-2008 12:50
Its seems clear as you read post after post of those who are defending Obama that they couldn't care less about McCain. Virtually everything is premised on "I hate Bush".
Some have expressed the opinion that neither is acceptable, and I am certainly sympathetic to that sentiment.

I have made no secret that I am a conservative and will still state that there is much of great importance I dislike about McCain, as listed below
1) His policies of Gobal Warming are ignorant, rresponsible, and will be finacially devastating
2) His policies on immigration are the same (see 1).
3) His policy of refusing to fully support offshore and Alaska drilling, or Colorado oil shales (though I know he has expressed limited support).

So here is the challange, I want those who have gone on record here in this forum in support of Obama to tell us what they believe is wrong with Obama's policies. Or can you?

Let's not forget this election is McCain against Obama. Not Bush against Obama. And don't say MCain is the same as Bush. You don't even wanna go there.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 10-08-2008 13:02
On McCain, you left out the fact that he intends to tax us for employer paid health care benefits. That could cost me thousands!

On Obama, he flip flopped on liquid coal.  He originally supported liquid coal, which is a very good energy policy.  Then the global warming alarmists forced him to say only if carbon emmissions from CTL production are 20% less than conventional oil.  Why not draw the line at the same as and make it an even trade since we are desperate for the fuels???!!!!!
Parent - - By KSellon (****) Date 10-16-2008 20:13
Obewan- I have scratched the health care debate out on paper and would like to broaden my knowledge on it. so here is what I have.

I have a PPO plan with my husband and daughter on it for $380 a mo = $4560 a year. At 30% tax rate = $1368.00 in taxes as income. McCain offers to credit you $5000 a year, so a year of health insurance runs you $928 or $77.33 a month.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but Obama wants to force small businesses (as defined as making $250,000 or less a year) to supply my employees with health insurance and pay 1/2 of the premium. I am not going to get any added taxes deductions for doing this. So as an employer I will scale back my employees or I will convert them to 'contract labor', so that they get 1099's and are considered self-employed.

In the state of Oklahoma I already have to pay $100 for every $1000 in payroll for workmans comp, I also have to pay 11% of what I pay in payroll to unemployment department. If Obama wants to stimulate jobs I do not see his plan as being the way to go.

Please let me know what you think.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-16-2008 20:23
Now you see why small businesses are terrified this guy is gonna get elected. Don't you know that small businesses making 250k or more are considered 'the rich' in Obamessiah land?  :)
And as such it is their civic duty, neh, their moral imperitive, to hand it over.
Parent - - By KSellon (****) Date 10-16-2008 20:50
I am wearing my McCain-Palin t-shirt as we speak--its covered in oil and dirt because as a small business owner responsible for the continued income of my employees I must stay involved in every part  of its operation.

I am eductaing my employees on tax matters, so that when I have to change their status to contract labor, they know what they can do to retain as much of their hard earned dollars as possible.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 10-16-2008 21:36
Retaining hard earned dollars. Now there's a concept we shall soon lose sight of. In fact, it seems that its anathema to many on the other side of the aisle. Downright evil even. You know, the Napoleans and Snowballs.   :)
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 10-17-2008 12:33
Everyone has a different case, so it will be impossible to satisfy everyone with one plan.  What I don't understand is if McCain's tax cut may be applied to the employee co-pay to buy insurance.  I mean, if my tax cut offsets my tax, then I would be a little better off or might even break even, but then what is the point (for me) except more IRS paperwork to an already burdensome system?
Parent - By KSellon (****) Date 10-20-2008 17:55
I feel it will cost one way or the  other (time or money) but which one is "cheaper" than the other???

I also don't like the fact that Obama says only 5% of small business gross more than 250K a year. Gross income and net worth over 250K will put severakl people in the new tax bracket of increased 3-4% income tax. Tax me on what I actually get to keep as a business not my overall income and net worth.

Atleast McCain is being upfront with his plan, the whole truth is out for all to hear. Obama says 1/2 of what he actually plans, then you have to read the fine print at the bottom for the other half.
Parent - - By KSellon (****) Date 10-20-2008 20:51
Obewan- I have been reading Obamas tax plan trying to educate myself further. And what I am finding is that most of his tax cuts are within your tax return also

"Making Work Pay" credit will provide a refundable tax cut

$4,000 fully refundable tax credit to ensure that college is affordable for all American families

a 10% refundable credit to offset mortgage interest payments

reform the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit by making it refundable

so either way "more IRS paperwork to an already burdensome system"

I enjoy reading your posts as it seems you don't jump on someone for their opinions--so instead of me watching msnbc verses Fox to get "both sides of the debate" I am interested in your honest thoughts on Obama stances..
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 10-21-2008 12:31
I have not heard about Obama's actual tax cut stances until you posted them.  It is a toss up for me now since I already voted for the Constitution Party based upon them being pro-life and against the Iraq war.  So, I don't know if I took a vote away from McCain or Obama.  That is a matter of debate.  The CP is for radical tax reform.  They want to abolish the IRS of something like that and replace it with a fair tax system - based upon sales taxes of something like that.  Either way, to pay off a $12 trillion debt, we will still need to pay a lot of taxes one way or another.
Parent - - By KSellon (****) Date 10-21-2008 16:47
just a note-- I see you are in Jacksonville, my brother was the youth minister at the Mandarin Methodist Church for years until he moved to NC.. anyway ----

I pray that God leads this country and our leaders. What we need is to once again be an Indutrial country, not just consumers and a service country. We need a time definate date established to remove our young people from Iraq--this I believe, but it ust not be hasty as it was in 1991.

We need to find the pro=ide of making and buying American to insure our stability and we need to base our money off of the gold standard again. Just my thoughts.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 10-21-2008 17:01
I know of Mandarin Methodist Church.  They invited the singles from other churches to Thanksgiving dinner last year.  I attend Christ's Church which used to be called Mandarin Christian Church, and live in Mandarin.
Parent - - By NEQA (**) Date 10-08-2008 13:18
Yes, we do want to go there. There is NO evidence that McCain is any different than Bush.  Conservatives love to say Obama is no different than "slick Willie" - as you like to refer to President Clinton.  But now, all of a sudden, repubs. don't think it's fair to link Mccain to Bush.

McCain's health plan, you know the $5,000 credit he will give you. Have you attempted to purchase a health plan for $5,000? Between what I contrubute each pay day, and what my  employer pays for my health care, it comes to a little over $12,000 a year. That is for 2 people. Do you - or McBush - really think an individual can purchase a health plan for 5k a year? Even you can't possibly be that gullible.  Then, to add insult to injury, McBush will tax that 5k a year as income !!!!

I am not crazy about Obama's health plan either - I preferred Hillary's. But, it's still better than McBush's.

Whether you like it or not - this election is a referendum on republican incompetency and policies that have failed at every turn. Millions watched a great American City die during Katrina, while Bush did absolutely nothing. Americans know Bush came into office with a $4B surplus and will leave office with a $1T deficit. McBush told us we had to invade Iraq because they had WMD - WRONG!!!. McBush told us we would be greeted as liberators in Iraq. WRONG!!!!  McBush told us the oil would pay for the war. WRONG!!!!!

There really isn't enough space here to list all of McBush's incompetencies. 

The electorate now is younger, smarter - and they are not fooled by the republican dirty, smear type of politics.    
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-08-2008 13:43
Blah, blah, blah. And still the challange goes un met. This might get quite hilarious.

I was there during Katrina. Don't post about something you don't know anything about. The federal government (FEMA) begged the Governor and the Mayor to allow them to come in and help as the storm was barreling down on the city and they were refused. It is ILLEGAL for them to do so without permission from those levels of government.
The federal government gave the city of New Orleans 26 billion dollars to fix the levies and the money was squandered by the Mayor and the Governor who knows where and the levies were not fixed. Clearly.
The federal government brought in a levy expert from Holland who told the city that they were insane for allowing this type of system to remain, and still nothing was done.
Oh, by the way, the Governor and the Mayor are democrats, and the Mayor was re-elected partly by busing thousands of former New Orleans people now living in Houston giving them free lunches to vote for him. Can you imagine?
My complaint with Bush in this whole mess was that he fired the director of FEMA who had successfuly managed 5, count em 5, hurricane relief operations prior to Katrina, as a political expedient. That was a mistake.
And then in a frenzy of fed bashing when Rita came barreling in just one month later we over-reacted and left 10's of thousands stranded on the highways of Texas.
Parent - - By NEQA (**) Date 10-08-2008 14:15
Blah, blah, blah?

Wow - you even talk like McBush. That's what McBush says when he can't think of anything intelligent to say. That and ...."my friends".
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-08-2008 14:23
And still the challenge stands.
I'm gonna need a case of Snickers for this one. Pun intended.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 10-08-2008 14:37
What do you mean the challenge stands.  I stated the problem with Obama's liquid coal policy.  Or don't you care about our energy future?
I suppose I don't qualify for the "challenge" since I am only an independent.

I will go on record and say that if EITHER Obama OR McCain would support Liquid Coal, I would vote for them instead of the Constitution Party as a protest vote.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-08-2008 14:44
I stand corrected Obewan. But I really hadn't considered you as one who had vociferously defended Obama and bashed Bush. But your criticism is duly noted, and respected.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 10-08-2008 14:56
It is true I have never defended Obama at this website.  To be accurate, I am very concerned about both options this year -especially considering the possible changes to my current very good health insurance.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 10-08-2008 15:04
I myself was far far from supporting McCain in the primaries, and was actually glad when his campaign when in the dumpster for awhile. He is not a conservative. But this is really a lesser of two evils election. And though all elections can pretty much be described the same way, this one is lesser of two evils times 1000. I am sincerely concerned about the fascist tendencies of the extreme left. The American left has never really shook off its heritage from the pre holocaust flirtation with the very popular 1920's European fascism.
Parent - - By jkin (**) Date 10-08-2008 16:32
    Do Facts Matter?

     by Thomas Sowell

   

Abraham Lincoln said, "You can fool all the people some of the time and
some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all
the time."

Unfortunately, the future of this country, as well as the fate of the
Western world, depends on how many people can be fooled on election day,
just a few weeks from now.

Right now, the polls indicate that a whole lot of the people are being
fooled a whole lot of the time.

The current financial bailout crisis has propelled Barack Obama back
into a substantial lead over John McCain-- which is astonishing in view
of which man and which party has had the most to do with bringing on
this crisis.

It raises the question: Do facts matter? Or is Obama's rhetoric and the
media's spin enough to make facts irrelevant?

Fact Number One: It was liberal Democrats, led by Senator Christopher
Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, who for years-- including the present
year-- denied that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were taking big risks that
could lead to a financial crisis.

It was Senator Dodd, Congressman Frank and other liberal Democrats who
for years refused requests from the Bush administration to set up an
agency to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

It was liberal Democrats, again led by Dodd and Frank, who for years
pushed for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go even further in promoting
subprime mortgage loans, which are at the heart of today's financial
crisis.

Alan Greenspan warned them four years ago. So did the Chairman of the
Council of Economic Advisers to the President. So did Bush's Secretary
of the Treasury, five years ago.

Yet, today, what are we hearing? That it was the Bush administration
"right-wing ideology" of "de-regulation" that set the stage for the
financial crisis. Do facts matter?

We also hear that it is the free market that is to blame. But the facts
show that it was the government that pressured financial institutions in
general to lend to subprime borrowers, with such things as the Community
Reinvestment Act and, later, threats of legal action by then Attorney
General Janet Reno if the feds did not like the statistics on who was
getting loans and who wasn't.

Is that the free market? Or do facts not matter?

Then there is the question of being against the "greed" of CEOs and for
"the people." Franklin Raines made $90 million while he was head of
Fannie Mae and mismanaging that institution into crisis.

Who in Congress defended Franklin Raines? Liberal Democrats, including
Maxine Waters and the Congressional Black Caucus, at least one of whom
referred to the "lynching" of Raines, as if it was racist to hold him to
the same standard as white CEOs.

Even after he was deposed as head of Fannie Mae, Franklin Raines was
consulted this year by the Obama campaign for his advice on housing!

The Washington Post criticized the McCain campaign for calling Raines an
adviser to Obama, even though that fact was reported in the Washington
Post itself on July 16th. The technicality and the spin here is that
Raines is not officially listed as an adviser. But someone who advises
is an adviser, whether or not his name appears on a letterhead.

The tie between Barack Obama and Franklin Raines is not all one-way.
Obama has been the second-largest recipient of Fannie Mae's financial
contributions, right after Senator Christopher Dodd.

But ties between Obama and Raines? Not if you read the mainstream media.

Facts don't matter much politically if they are not reported.

The media alone are not alone in keeping the facts from the public.
Republicans, for reasons unknown, don't seem to know what it is to
counter-attack. They deserve to lose.

But the country does not deserve to be put in the hands of a glib and
cocky know-it-all, who has accomplished absolutely nothing beyond the
advancement of his own career with rhetoric, and who has for years
allied himself with a succession of people who have openly expressed
their hatred of America.
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 10-08-2008 18:07
jkin,

Thanks for sharing that article.
It's very informative.

NEQA,

jkin's article is supported by those I've posted on the other thread.
Has any of this information led you to re-think your party choice?
I say party choice, because nobody in their right mind would purposely vote for Barrack Hussein Obama, unless they were simply voting Democrat, regardless of who their candidate might be.
McCain / Palin is CLEARLY the better choice.
Don't get me wrong, as I'm no registered Republican. I'm so sick of both "Parties" and their right wing, left wing "politics" that I've been seriously considering becoming a hermit and live in a mountain side bomb shelter.
I think that this paticular election is important though as the Democratic party has gone rabid and needs to be put down.

I wish I had a couple hundred million dollars so I could buy the election.
I'd promote a write in campaign for Colin Powell.

Tim
Parent - By KSellon (****) Date 10-16-2008 20:45
nice post Jkin-- it was Clinton in 1995 that signed in sub prime lending requirements. In 2002 or 2003 McCain pointed out the flaws in this and tried to do something. But that gets swept under the carpet.

money and greed run this country, don't be fooled. A puppet show we are all audience to. I too would like to return to the days when each family was self sufficient, worked hard and had something to take pride in. As I see it, the further this country gets away from Our good Lord Almighty, the closer to the pits of hell we become.
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 10-19-2008 12:47
Well said!!

The above facts can be documented as far back as 1993.

Griff
Parent - By michael kniolek (***) Date 10-08-2008 21:05
Nequ do oyu live in the US?
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 10-08-2008 14:56
Why ANYONE who is connected to the energy industry, works with their hands, or loves freedom would think of supporting Obama is beyond me.  He does NOT have America's interests at heart; and the fact a lot of my friends belong to unions that are supporting him...........it is mind boggling.  Do a LITTLE research on the creep.  He is NOT a fit person to occupy the highest office in our land.
Parent - - By vagabond (***) Date 10-08-2008 15:30
Take the time to go and look at BOTH the websites McCains and Obamas.  On the issue of health care (which you will pay for under Obama, oh yes you will) Obama has about a 2 paragraph answer and McCain has a very lengthly, detailed, outline for his plan.  And yes 5,000 a yr. for health care is a decent price, much less than I pay now.   I don't agree with McCain about everything and for the record I think Bush could've done a lot better job.  BUT this is the lesser of two evils election there is no doubt and the fact Obama is very inexperienced to say the least should be a deterrant for people who are thinking about voting for him.  With all of the problems the new President will have on their plate do we really want someone who is still an apprentice politician in Washington?? 
Parent - By SMTatham (**) Date 10-08-2008 17:40
This is not original to me; just passing on food for thought!

This election has me very worried. So many things to
consider. About a year ago I would have voted for Obama. I
have changed my mind three times since than. I watch all
the news channels, jumping from one to another. I must say
this drives my husband crazy. But, I feel if you view
MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News, you might get some middle ground
to work with. About six months ago, I started thinking
"where did the money come from for Obama". I have
four daughters who went to College, and we were middle
class, and money was tight. We (including my girls) worked
hard and there were lots of student loans.

I started looking into Obama's life.

Around 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in
California. He is very open about his two years at
Occidental, he tried all kinds of drugs and was wasting his
time but, even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply
himself to his studies. "Barry" (that was the name
he used all his life) during this time had two roommates,
Muhammad Hasan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both from Pakistan.
During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college,
he made a "round the world" trip. Stopping to see
his mother in Indonesia, next Hyderabad in India, three
weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his
roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his
father's family. My question - Where did he get the
money for this trip? Nether I, nor any one of my children
would have had money for a trip like this when they where in
college.. When he came back he started school at Columbia
University in New York. It is at this time he wants
everyone to call him Barack - not Barry. Do
you know what the tuition is at Columbia? It's not
cheap! to say the least. Where did he get money for
tuition? Student Loans? Maybe. After Columbia, he went to
Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for $12,000. a
year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living
in New York.

By "chance" he met Antoin "Tony"
Rezko, born in Aleppo Syria, and a real estate developer in
Chicago. Rezko has been convicted of fraud and bribery this
year. Rezko, was named "Entrepreneur of the
Decade" by the Arab-American Business and Professional
Association". About two years later, Obama entered
Harvard Law School. Do you have any idea what tuition is
for Harvard Law School? Where did he get the money for Law
School? More student loans? After Law school, he went back
to Chicago. Rezko offered him a job, which he turned down.
But, he did take a job with Davis, Miner, Barnhill &
Galland. Guess what? They represented "Rezar"
which Rezko's firm. Rezko was one of Obama's first
major financial contributors when he ran for office in
Chicago. In 2003, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama
which Chicago Tribune reporter David Mendelland claims was
instrumental in providing Obama with "seed money"
for his U.S. Senate race. In 2005, Obama purchased a new
home in Kenwoood District of Chicago for $1.65 million (less than asking
price). With ALL those Student Loans - Where did he get the
money for the property? On the same day Rezko's wife,
Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot for full price. The
London Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born
Billionaire loaned Rezko $3.5 million three weeks before
Obama's new home was purchased. Obama met Nadhmi Auchi
many times with Rezko.

Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett,
was Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief
advisor and he does not make any major decisions without
talking to her first. Where was Jarrett born? Ready for
this? Shiraz, Iran! Do we see a pattern here? Or am I going crazy?

On May 10, 2008 The Times reported, Robert Malley advisor
to Obama was "sacked" after the press found out he
was having regular contacts with "Hamas", which
controls Gaza and is connected with Iran. This past week,
buried in the back part of the papers, Iraqi newspapers
reported that during Obama's visit to Iraq, he asked
their leaders to do nothing about the war until after he is
elected, and he will "Take care of things".

Oh, and by the way, remember the college roommates that
where born in Pakistan? They are in charge of all those
"small" Internet campaign contribution for Obama.
Where is that money coming from? The poor and middle class
in this country? Or could it be from the Middle East?

And the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The
Washington Times posted a verbal slip that was made on
"This Week" with George Stephanapoulos. Obama on
talking about his religion said, "My Muslim faith". When
questioned, "he make a mistake". Some mistake!

All of the above information I got on line. If you would
like to check it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama;
Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett: Daily Times - Obama visited
Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times - September 7, 2008;
The Times May 10, 2008.

Now the BIG question - If I found out all this information
on my own, Why haven't all of our "intelligent" members of the
press been reporting this?

A phrase that keeps ringing in my ear - "Beware of the
enemy from within!"
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 10-08-2008 18:23 Edited 10-08-2008 18:31
Sounds to me like some one, just wants some one, to say what he wants to hear.

The president's office is not the worst of our problems, most of the time he is just a "Scape Goat". They will get right because you right isn't my right.

Like Jay Leno says "That's how you get the CON in Congress."

I worry about Obama. I worry about McCain also. I will have to make up my mind in the voting booth. They should make them work like slot machines

Who ever gets the office, remember to read their lips so you know to expect the opposite?

I really do not care influence anyone's opinion but check your source before you expound on things you hear. Now don't try to say other wise because most of you were not born when a lot of this got started and some of it started long before the canidates ever got in to politics...

When the FICA (Social Security) was enacted it was for sole the purpose of taking care of old foggies like me. When you think about it it's a hell of a good scheme. The population keeps growing and the old farts keep dying so you always have more people contributing than using. 

Where did it go wrong? How could it fail? I think I know. I guess there was just too much money sitting there and too many eyes watching it. Locks will only keep honest people honest.

The Unions required employers set money a side for retirement funds in a separate account. When times got bad employers would tell their employees they needed to tap in to that money or have a lay off. So they used the retirement money and still laid people off. Wadda gonna do?

A law was passed making that practice illegal, So now a different element see's all that money just sitting doing nothing and decided they wanted in on the action.

A few years ago we had a very one sided Congress and one of the first things they tried to do was repeal the law preventing corporations from tapping in to retirement funds.

I won't point fingers for it would be a pointless gesture. If you care to do the research beware you may have a change of heart or rhetoric. The point is we are going to have to work with who ever gets the office so BOHICA.

I didn't need to do a lot of research on this I seen some of it 1st hand and my folks lived all of it.

There doesnt seem to be right or wrong about it it just depends on who's doing the talking so "Just name your poison hope for the best"

My $.002 toward another diamond.
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 10-08-2008 22:53
You did not get one fact correct.    Goodbye.

Griff
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-12-2008 03:25 Edited 10-20-2008 11:08
"The electorate now is younger, smarter"

You know, when I was younger, <25, Nobody could tell me anything. I thought I had it all figured out. Over time, I've learned that simply wasn't the case. As has anyone who is truthful.

That situation has been agrevated to the nth degree as todays youth are all about being popular. Reality TV shows, mass media, etc etc, they all revolve around picking the popular person all the way down to american idol. So if you have a bunch of tech savvy types hanging around, and an aggenda to put someone in the Presidents office,  going after that group of voters who want to be seen as hip / in you'd create a silent web media campaign leading up to an announcement for running for the office of US president.
(ringing any bells here?)

I've made no secret that I believe the entire political process in the US is broken. Dems and Reps. both. However; what really worries me is who obama's handlers are. To get to where he is at, he had to be pushed from behind. Those pushing have close ties to mass media groups (CNN, CBS, NBC etc) who have treated him with kid gloves.

Finally what worries me more than anything, is that so many of the United States youth cannot think for themselves and must resort to parroting something they heard that was popular rather than doing it for themselves. That mentality is what got us here where we are today. No one follows through with investigations of their own. Can't get a loan? no problem we'll just set you up even though you've went through 25 jobs in 5 years. Then there is the get rich quick crowd speculating on the markets, and housing all the while building their pyramid and waiting to see who gets the shaft at the top. All in all, the instant satisfaction mentality is at the root of this, and obamas handlers have played that angle well indeed.
That my friends is the real danger, and the real worry.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-08-2008 22:45
I got one.  I don't care for Obama's policy of wanting to support Georgia's entrance into NATO.  Ukraine maybe Georgia NO!  We can't afford a major war with anyone.  Georgia is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.  The best thing that could happen to them is if Russia did take them over.  America needs more allies like Russia than Georgia. 
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 10-08-2008 23:02
????????????????????
Parent - - By johnnyh (***) Date 10-08-2008 23:05
lol
Parent - - By RioCampo (***) Date 10-09-2008 03:26
Both candidates are like john wayne toilet paper. They leave your A$$ raw.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 10-09-2008 03:50
Obama would be like using a brillo pad on it!
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-09-2008 11:52
js55, I admit to being a political moron, I really don't follow either side of the candidates but feel BOTH parties have had some real losers in recent elections.  What does sicken me to my stomach is how Republicans and Democrats alike bash each other... in most "civilized" nations politics are not so vocally abusive as our own.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could simply discuss the issues and not the candidates?  I know they go hand in glove with how each side intends to execute matters depending on the winner but the way things are now is it any wonder we're all sick of politicians???

Obama worries me, not because of his alleged ties in the past (both parties have skeletons) but rather from what little I've seen of him, myself being overseas, he seems a bit too much of a smooth talker...i.e., stereotypical politician.  That said, whether McCain is GW's reincarnate is a matter of opinion but I simply couldn't stand another 4 more years of the same IF it were true so would probably vote an independent if I were home and of course, that wouldn't do either side any benefit.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-09-2008 13:31
I don't know Jon. I've seen British Parliment in session many times and the debates are sarcastic (nobody is better at intelligent sarcasm than the Brits), biting, and sometimes down right angry. Asian Parliments have a tendency to get raucous at times as well. I don't have a problem with it. It means you care.
Bryon Lewis and NEQA clearly have strong disagreement with me but what is also clear is that they have passion for something that is important. I think a bigger problem is our apathy, not our passion. The typical 'interview on the street' people who don't even know who the Vice President is. This is our biggest problem.

As for skeletons. I haven't heard yet of anybody else having skeletons that tried to blow stuff up.

As for connecting McCain with Bush, thats just another way of saying they're Republicans. Only doing so in such a sober manner doesn't lend itself to the 'I hate Bush' mentality. You don't hear anybody trying to connect McCain with Reagan. Funny isn't it. Bush is not that far from Reagan and yet Reagan is considered one of the greatest in history. Bush one of the most hated. Given this dichotomy it certianly isn't a conservative approach at fault.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-10-2008 04:08
js55, I voted Reagan, both times, as I did GW Sr., the first time.  In retrospect, I think Reagan was a brilliant communicator but can't really see what good he did for our nation and I disagree it was him that was behind the falling of the Berlin wall, even though he publically demanded it.  GW Sr., on the other hand, is an incredibly intelligent man, but again, I can't see what great things he brought to our nation.  In Reagan's case, although I don't remember who had majority in house and senate, America had one of it's worst periods of economy in my memory... GW Sr., while leading a brilliant defeat of Iraq's occupation of Kuwait was smart enough to let things be by not completely overthrowing it's govenrment.

Finally, I say complete B*llsh!t to these claims that Obama ever tried to blow anything up, for christ sake, that is just plain old crap.  While he may have some association with this Ayer's guy, it certainly doesn't place him as sympathetic or involved with his activities while Obama was 8 years old... this type rhetoric is purely smear type discussion and only goes to further distrust between party lines.

I also further another comment in this thread that while Obama may have far less experience than McCain, his lead in the polls clearly shows most of America is also fed-up with the current administration.  Yeah, it is time for change./
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-10-2008 04:53
It seems that McCain and his minions are at wits end.  They are using the BS about Ayers and the fact that President Obama's middle name happens to be Hussein as a last resort to gain some support back.  During the Iraq-Iran war President Reagan supported Iraq against Iran.  Saddam Hussein was president during this period.  Now what does that tell you about America's policies in the Middle East.  If Osama bin Laden was a Mujahedin commander in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion the the US supported him too at one time.  Either Uncle Sam needs to stay out of foreign policy all together, or pick alliances for the long haul. 
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-10-2008 05:08
It's not surprizing so much of the globe hates America... the problem is, those same people hate American's in general, like many American's hate Muslim's in general.  Having travelled more than many of my fellow forum member's, I can say with good certainty, people are people, no matter where you go, it's only the political's who bring the image (good or bad) to those of their countries.  To address the Muslim concern's, I will say that for the past year, I have lived and worked in a country that is 70% Muslim and have had ZERO problems, in fact find the people to be pleasant.  That is certainly not to say that 99.999% of terrorism hasn't been the direct result of extreme member's from this religion it's only to highlite the point that there ar egood and bad among all races and religions.

I. for one, feel America is way, way too involved in how other nation's run their countries.  It's really time we focus on domestic issues rather than trying to push democracy and human rights on the rest of the world; we should not be Rome or we'll fall as Rome fell.  To that end, we have much to do at home with these sme issues.
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 10-10-2008 13:18
Jon, I'm with you on those issues. I worked with 17 Bosnian refugees. We took them in (Western Mich area) and trained them with new skills - welding. All but one was Muslim, the other was Christian but he was Serbian and married to a Bosnian. Anyway, very common sense driven, intellegent people. And they certainly got their fair share of people talking down to them, along with attitudes and jokes about their religion. But to add to that thought, and I know this is not going to be a popular statement, I also see our major problem whith forgien countries to be our arrogance. We always say 'we're the greatest', 'we're the best country in the world'...it is one thing to strive to be the best, and maybe even to think your the best. But it is another story to constantly claim your the best. How many friends would you have in your personal life if you always reminded your friends how much better you are than they are? None is the answer. With the claim all people are equal, it appears we only mean within our borders. Because clearly we're better than everyone else. And I'm not bashing the U.S., I understand we help, and sacrifice our best to save the lives of people in other nations. But our message and delivery of - are messed up.
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-10-2008 13:47
Yet another brilliant post.  I watched a movie one time that was based on, I believe British colonialism in India.  There was a military officer arguing with an enlisted man about the treatment of the indiginous people.  I believe the line the officer told him was, "We are not going to bring the world to England, we are here to bring England to the world."  Please don't ask what movie it was.  It was at least 20 years ago. 

Anyway, that is the similar arrogance that has gotten us into trouble on the International stage.  McCain/Palin both at the debates say how they will bring home our troops only with victory and glory and how Obama won't.  Although I have never gone to war, the only glory I can see is through the eyes of Hollywood.  American criticize France, Germany and Russia for not being apart of the "Coalition of the Willing".  Can any of you count the number of times these 3 countries, and the rest of Europe for that matter, have been devistated by wars. 

There are still remnants of ancient wars that are found everyday in Europe.  They truly have a sense of "war is hell".  Because 95% of Americans get there war experience from Hollywood it seems to be a glorious undertaking.  America has never had a war on our shores since the Civil War.  All other wars that have taken place have been in other backyards.  The military are doing very important work trying to protect others' freedoms around the world.  I think without the economic problems and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour I don't think the US would have gotten into WWII.  Hitler started his shenanigans in 1939.  The Japanese invaded China in 1937.  And we waited until 1941 to do anything.

If we are going to be a Super Power in the 21st Century, gunboat diplomacy is not going to work.  As we all know the almighty Dollar (Euro or Yen, etc) is King.  If Iraq wants to buy a nuclear power plant.  America better put in a bid, if not someone else will do it.  There is a term that Washington and Wall Street should pay close attention to.  That term is GLOBAL ECONOMY.  Its here and getting more global daily.  American banks close causing British banks to close which cause Icelandic banks to close.  We need to back up and truly analyze America's involvment in the world today.
    
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-10-2008 14:32
Not too many gray hairs there Bryon?  :)
Picking alliances for the long haul can only work if your governments are based upon the same ideals., i.e. democracy as it is with us and Britain, and Germany, and France, etc.
The world changes. We had an alliance with the Soviet Union during WWII and as much as your liberal sympathies would have preferred we continue that alliance into the 50's and the 60's, the fact that they wished nothing less than our destruction made that  more than a little inconvenient. That the greater threat to us from Nazi Germany had been elimitated changed the landscape. And the fact that Germany is now our friend, with our disputes nothing more than a family squabble, is a good thing.
Or lets take Japan. To be consistent we would still consider them an enemy as well. Wouldn't want that.
The fact that the greater threat to us from Iran at the time, I'm sure you remember the Marine Baracks bombing, was the priority. Then it wasn't. The world is a dynamic place. Always will be. To ask for alliances to be carved in stone is at best unreasonable and irresponsible, and at worst naive and dangerous.
It doesn't have anything to do with a flaw in American policy. It has to do with a changing world. Everyones policies do the exact same thing. Ours, theirs, conservatives,l iberals, no matter.

And I doubt very seriously that a man that has faced war and survived torture is at his wits end over anything a campaign can deal out. Get real. Once you've gone through hell the rest is easy.

"Uncle Sam needs to stay out of foreign policy all together."..............Now there's a revealing post.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-10-2008 16:29
Yes indeed the world changes.  Now is the time that America changes to catch up to the rest of the world.  All of America's traditional allies, France, UK, Germany and many others are leaning more to the left.  Nationalizing banks and yes, God forbid health care are all things that our allies are doing for their people.  When you are wasting 100s of billions of tax dollars exerting athority around the world.  Then things get neglected at home.  We have a moral responsibility to treat other nations fairly if we are going to be a "super power".

Why wasn't Iraq attacked to save the Kurds in the late 80's?  Why not help the Rwandan genocide?  Or take Pol Pot out, remember the "Killing Fields"?  Or Darfur what about them?  I'll tell you why.  There is no oil in Rwanda, Khampuchea or Sudan or anything else of "value"!!!
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-10-2008 17:39
Oh please! Spare us the tired old oil argument. A more complete explanation as everyone knows is whether or not there is an American interest involved, of which oil is certainly a part. Cut off our oil and what happens? I garantee it'll be more disasterous than riding a bike to work.
And you liberals are real big on whining about humanitarian disasters in other places. Until the body bags start coming home. See my earlier arguments about Obama's talk of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Liberals talk of moral high ground but are never willing to pay the price.
Funny how you portray the country that is looked at by the entire planet as the world leader, the one they always call to come runiin when they have trouble, as having to 'catch up'. The ridiculousness of that statement speaks for itself. But who knows perhaps the EU might help those countries you speak of compensate for their liberal encomberances and actually compete against us. Thats what it was created for.

Nationalizing banks!!! Are your fricken insane!!
You wanna toss around names like Pol Pot. Lets get serious. Nationalizing banks has been done before. Try Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Musolini. Now thats a move to the left. Do you like it?
Just like I said, the American left in their infinite ignorance has never shed its love affair with Fascism. Most aren't even aware of the connection. To them its just the Mommy government doing it all for them. George Carlin may have been wrong. Its not fascism with a smiley face. Its fascism like mammas teet. Talk to em long enough and it becomes obvious.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-10-2008 18:43
Actually Fascism is the far right side of the politcal spectrum.  That is how Hitler got elected in the first place because of the fear of the LEFT WING communist and socialist parties. 

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." -Marx
"If you have two coats, give one away." -Jesus Christ
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-10-2008 19:42 Edited 10-10-2008 19:46
Wrong.
Fascism as a right wing movement is a myth.
This myth even found its way into our textbooks through the 50's and 60's and has now become accepted. But it is still wrong.
If you actually listen to the things Hitler ran on, and the speeches he made, the changes he instigated there is essentially no difference between him and Musolini or Lenin/Stalin except as noted above. German blood instead of class conflict or Italian Nationalism.
It was after all called National Socialist German Workers Party. If you look it up on Wikepedia you will find it saying it formed most of its alliances on the right, which is only partly true, but it will also say that it espoused the welfare state, collectivism, liberalism, totalitariansim, and anti capitalism (note that you espouse Nationalizing the Banking system). Sound familiar. Thats about as anti capitalist as it gets.
In the 30's everyone understood that it was predominantly left wing. But with the revelation of the holocaust the Left needed to distance itself from the horror's of the Nazi version and developed a huge campaign to seperate the Nazi version from the Communist version, of which they had great sympathy and use for, given its class conflict theme.
The rise of Hitler was most definately a grassroots movement. Made up predominantly of poor or working class people. There was certainly some support and financing from industrialists(the great majority of which came late to the party when they realized Hitler was winning and didn't want to piss him off), but this paled in comparison to the support from the lower classes, and is no more difficult to explain than the fact that todays American liberal movement is predominantly financed and organized by Northeastern liberal rich elites. Hines-Kerry ring a bell. Its no coincidence that as a rule the great majority of 10 most richest congressmen year in and year out are liberals. You don't really believe those northeastern rich folks care about the working man do you?
Fascism as a name started with Musolini who was viewed with great fondness by Stalin for his socialist activism, until he changed the communist class theme to one of Italian Nationalism. Hitler modeled much of his rise upon Musolini.
The fear of communism was certainly present, but the humiliation of the Treaty at Versailles, the loss of actual German soil, and the unpayable reparations was a far greater motivating theme.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-10-2008 21:26
Its Heinz!
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 10-11-2008 15:06
Thanks.
Never much cared for ketchup. Or catsup. Or whatever. :)
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